AURA Over Authority: Rethinking Our Response to Challenging Behaviours

When it comes to managing challenging behaviours in children who have experienced trauma, conventional approaches often fall short. Colby Pearce, a renowned expert in child trauma and development, recently delivered an insightful training session that offers a paradigm shift in how we understand and respond to children’s behaviours of concern.

The foundation of Pearce’s approach is asking three fundamental questions: What’s really going on for the child when they exhibit the behaviour? How can we respond therapeutically to the real reasons for their behaviour? And how will we know that we’ve made a difference? This reflective framework helps caregivers move beyond surface-level behaviour management to addressing the underlying causes of distress.

Central to Pearce’s methodology is the AAA model – Attachment, Arousal, and Accessibility to needs provision. This comprehensive framework provides a lens through which to understand children’s internal experiences. The Attachment component explores how children view themselves, others, and their world. Children who have experienced relational trauma often develop negative core beliefs, seeing themselves as unlovable or unworthy, viewing adults as uncaring or unpredictable, and perceiving the world as fundamentally unsafe.

The Arousal element examines how activated a child’s central nervous system is. Many children who have experienced trauma operate with heightened arousal levels, making them prone to anxiety, sleep disturbances, and emotional dysregulation. Their nervous systems aren’t well-developed for thinking before acting, predisposing them to impulsivity and emotional outbursts that conventional behaviour management approaches often misinterpret or exacerbate.

The third component, Accessibility to needs provision, considers what children have learned about getting their needs met. Children from traumatic backgrounds often display extremely demanding behaviours or, conversely, excessive self-reliance. These patterns develop in response to early experiences where needs were met inconsistently or inadequately, teaching children that they must work extraordinarily hard to secure adult attention and care.

Pearce argues compellingly that conventional behaviour management strategies fail with these children precisely because they were designed for children raised in consistent, responsive environments. Ignoring demanding behaviour, using reward systems, or implementing punishments simply doesn’t work because these children haven’t experienced the consistent reinforcement that would make such approaches effective. Instead, these strategies often trigger their negative core beliefs, confirming their sense of unworthiness and mistrust.

As an alternative, Pearce proposes the AURA approach: Accessibility, Understanding, Responsiveness, and Attunement. Being accessible to children reassures them that adults are available, reducing anxiety and building trust. Responding with understanding – through words, actions, and expressed emotions – validates children’s experiences and helps develop their language skills. Being proactively responsive to needs teaches children they don’t need to manipulate to get care. And attunement – being emotionally in sync – communicates deep worth and connection.

Perhaps most challenging for caregivers is identifying what success looks like. Pearce notes that humans are naturally problem-focused, making it difficult to notice improvements or positive changes. This negativity bias can leave caregivers feeling overwhelmed and inadvertently reinforces children’s negative self-perceptions through the “looking glass self” phenomenon – where children see themselves as they believe others see them.

For professionals working with traumatised children – whether in child protection, foster care, residential care, or education – this trauma-informed approach offers a path beyond the frustration of failed behaviour management. By addressing the real reasons behind behaviours, caregivers can help children develop more positive beliefs about themselves and others, regulate their emotions more effectively, and learn healthier ways to communicate their needs.

Access the worksheet here.

Watch here:

Transcript:

Colby: 0:00

Hi, I’m Colby Pearce. Recently I was asked to deliver training to a local organisation and its staff, with no brief about what that training would be about, so I decided to deliver the training on the topic of responding therapeutically to behaviours of concern. The training takes you through a reflective process to behaviours of concern. The training takes you through a reflective process with the intention of being able to answer three critical questions what’s really going on for the child or young person when they exhibit the behaviour? How can we respond therapeutically to the real reasons for their behaviour? And how will we know that we’ve made a difference? The training was recorded and the following video is an innocent version of it. It’s probably of most usefulness to practitioners in child protection usefulness to practitioners in child protection, foster carers, kinship carers, residential carers and teachers of children and young people recovering from a tough start to life and other professional stakeholders in their life. I hope you take something positive from the training. There is a handout to go with the training, a link to which I’ve included in the description of this video. If you take something positive from the video, please give it a thumbs up and subscribe to my channel. Is highly encouraging of me to continue to make high quality content for those who interact with children and young people recovering from a tough start to life in care professional and other stakeholder roles. I thought I’d talk to you about something that probably comes up a lot in our work, so I thought I’ll talk about behaviour management, because carers, foster carers, kinship carers often like to talk about behaviour management. What should we do about this behaviour or that behaviour? Notwithstanding that, probably it is the case that most, if not all, carers in the sector these days get training. That argues perhaps for relying less on conventional behaviour management strategies and more on providing a therapeutic milieu in the home, a trauma-informed milieu, and certainly also in schools there’s conventional behaviour management strategies that are used all the time. So I’m intending to make this a bit of a reflective process. Hopefully you’ve all got pen and paper and are handy. What I want you to do in the first instance is I want you to just think of a reflective process. Hopefully you’ve all got pen and paper handy. What I want you to do in the first instance is I want you to just think of a child or young person who you either care for or working with and on a piece of paper, I just want you to write down their name. And now what I want you to do is just to have a bit of a think about a behaviour that you or others are concerned about, that that child exhibits a child or young person exhibits. So just write down, underneath their name, a behaviour that is of concern In terms of responding therapeutically, which is my aim to impart today responding therapeutically to behaviours of concern. This is really the simple structure that I am going to follow. It’s part of the care curriculum, a curriculum that I’ve written over a long period of time. The three essential parts are what’s really going on, how can I respond therapeutically to what’s really going on and how will I know that I’m successful in my endeavours? So how do we know that we’re successful when we intervene or respond in relation to a presenting issue? You should have the name of a child and a behaviour that you or others are concerned about.

Colby: 4:29

The next thing I’d like you to do is answer these three questions about the child. We’ll write an answer to these three questions about the child. First one is if they could or would, how would they truthfully describe themselves, other people and their world? Don’t worry if it’s very negative, because that’s common in our children. How fast does their motor run? That is, how activated do you think their central nervous system is? Does it run really fast?Colby: 

5:07

Often kids whose nervous systems run very fast have problems with sleeping. They display high levels of activity and agitation, although that can be confusing, because also kids whose nervous system is under arouse can be impulsive and overly active as well. Sleep is affected. The children seem to have trouble going to sleep, staying asleep, wake up early, but seem to function better than you would expect. On the lack of sleep, are they anxiety prone or prone to tantrums? Anxiety proneness and tantrums tend to be associated with the motor running a bit fast. So just write down what you think. How fast you think their motor is running? Do you think it’s normal? Do you think they’re just very laid back and it’s slow? Or maybe they have ADHD? With ADHD we have an underactive nervous system that is corrected through psychostimulant medication, which has the so-called paradoxical effect of them calming down. And the calming down bit is that they’re less impulsive, less prone to trying to seek movement and activity to increase central nervous system arousal and better able to think and concentrate. Clearly it’s a trickier one with ADHD because the behaviours you see are not dissimilar to what you see with a highly anxious child, but it’s really important to discern whether it’s one or the other, because it impacts how you might respond to it.

Colby: 6:51

The third thing I’d like you to consider is what do they appear to have learnt about how to get their needs met, remembering that kids learn about adult responsiveness from very young, from infancy. So the sorts of things to be turning your mind to there include, you know, are they pretty relaxed about adults responding to them? Are they really demanding? Can’t let the adult out of this science Will ask for things that they don’t even want or need, but just to reassure themselves that they have access to needs provision.Colby: 7:29

Remembering that normality and abnormality are differentiated by frequency, intensity and duration. So by which I mean, if you made an exhaustive list of behaviour of concern that children and young people might exhibit, a good proportion of them would be exhibited by most children. The difference is frequency, intensity and duration. There are a few exceptions, like sexualised behaviour, for example, although there is a developmental phase when children are more interested in their reproductive parts and we’re engaging with others a little around that, but not to the extent that we see. The extent that we see, because it’s more exploratory and interest rather than symbolic for want of a better word and representative of unlawful things that have happened to them. Well, hopefully you’ve all got something down for that. The figure to the right of it hopefully you can see it in full is the AAA model. I’ve been using the AAA model for a long time in my work as the basis for understanding the internal world of children and young people. It was first published in 2009, then several times since, including in international peer-referred journals, but it’s meant to be a model that facilitates us having an understanding of what’s going on for our children and young people.

Colby: 9:21

So the first bits where I ask if they could or would, how would the child truthfully describe themselves to other people in their world? That maps onto attachment, particularly in the AAA model, whereby what we’re talking about is the internal working model is a term that you would see commonly in the attachment literature. Is a term that you would see commonly in the attachment literature. I use the term attachment representations. Schema is all self schema, core schema are used, but what we’re really talking about is that the core beliefs that a child or a young person has about themselves, other people and their world, and we all have these and we all have a set of beliefs that we are lovable, capable, deserving, worthy, the adults are kind, understanding, accessible, responsive and the world is a safe place. We also have beliefs that the world can be an unsafe place, that we’re weak and vulnerable and that other people are unsafe and what we tend to do. If you think about attachment as a spectrum, people kind of move along that spectrum based on what’s happening in their life in terms of these attachment representations.

Colby: 10:58

So what I would say to you is that our children and young people they spend a lot of time down the really negative end. I’m bad, unlovable, unworthy adults are mean and nasty, uncaring, the world is an unsafe place, and sometimes they’re up the other end, where they’re starting to believe more in themselves than in others. Sometimes they’re up there too much. They’re down the other end, whereas most of us, we’re a lot of time up the good end, secure end, but we do sometimes go down the other end. Whereas most of us, we’re a lot of time up the good end, secure end, but we do sometimes go down the other end, and the best recent example of that was in about March and April of 2020, when suddenly the world became unsafe, other people were unsafe and a threat potentially threatening, and we were vulnerable and weak. So we all have it within us to go to that darker place, but our children spend their.

Colby: 11:55

When I say our children and young people or our children, I mean the children that we work with. They spend too much time there and I mean it’s beyond the scope of this presentation to talk exhaustively about attachment. But where they predominantly sit on that spectrum really negative, down one end, really positive, up the other end, secure, disordered where they sit really just depends on things that are happening in their life now, but more so has a lot to do with the kind of relationships that they are happening in their life now. But but but more so has a lot to do with the kind of relationships that they’ve had in their life key relationships, because most of the young people who we work with have experienced relational trauma. They’re they’re kind of prone to being down the negative end more, but we can move them more towards the positive end by facilitating lots of positive experiences of relatedness and repair of damaged relationships. That’s why we do family contact.

Colby: 13:00

So this is attachment, this is the attachment part of it and the attachment part of the and the attachment part of the triple a model, as I said, is what? What do they, would they say about themselves, other people in their world, if they could or would? Remembering that our children don’t always have the language to express this, it’s more experienced and felt. That’s kind of like their thoughts, feelings. The thing about emotions is that emotions are thought to have two components arousal and valence. So valence just means good or bad. Arousal means level of activation of your nervous system. So when you’re experiencing emotions, your motor runs faster. Yeah, when you’re experiencing really strong emotions, your motor runs really fast and is in danger of blowing up. So arousal is the second A of the AAA model Our children.

Colby: 14:00

They tend to get to blow up really easily. Big part of that is that they idle quickly, they’re highly strung by and large, but they also negatively interpret their world through that, through those attachment representations. So they see threat, they see neglect or they see withdrawal of care everywhere, even when it doesn’t exist. So they’re particularly anxiety prone, our children. Anxiety is most likely to occur when there’s negative, overly negative, appraisals of a situation and your motor’s running too fast. So our children, as I said, motor running too fast, accessibility to needs provision is an interesting one.

Colby: 14:50

So the literature, the child trauma literature, is as over the time that I’ve been working in, and before that, well before that, a lot of it had was psychoanalytic thought but but probably attachment theory was the predominant theoretical approach to understanding what’s going on for our kids and young people. Then, from about the mid-90s, which is when I started my career in DCP, the work of Bruce Perry and others started to be widely known and thought about and integrated. So we ended up with content and knowledge around central nervous system development, the neurobiology of trauma. In reality, if you distill it all down, what we’re talking about are nervous systems that are not well developed to be thinking through things before acting and overly prone to activating the deeper structures of the brain that result in increased arousal or high levels of arousal.

Colby: 16:08

Apart from my early work in DCPP, I did a lot of work in inter-country adoption. In inter-country adoption children were coming from quite disadvantaged care environments overseas into hot, you know, quite enriched care environments here in Australia. But they would continue to behave as if they were in the old care environment where they were in an orphanage in a third world country where there was a high ratio of kids to adults. So it was really difficult for babies to get their needs responded to in a timely way. So what it prompted me to do is to think a lot about what children learn in their first days, about how to get their needs met.

Colby: 16:57

In the AAA model it’s dealing with the kids’ thoughts, their feelings, their thoughts and feelings, attachment, arousal, and their learning thoughts, feelings and learning. And they’re learning Thoughts, feelings and learning. So what we know, probably the best paradigm for understanding what they learn, is the operant conditioning paradigm. The operant conditioning paradigm is the paradigm that underpins most, if not all, of what we refer to as conventional behaviour management, to as conventional behaviour management. So as we’re growing up, we try different behaviours and some behaviours get a response from others, a desirable response from others. We refer to that as a reinforcer. So a child will do something. They’ll get a desirable response from someone. If they get that response often enough and consistently enough, that behaviour becomes a useful part of their repertoire and they’ll keep doing it. It’s a bit like when a kid starts school and the teacher says put your hand up when you need me. Well, kids have to learn about putting their hands up. If the teacher responds consistently enough, the kids will quickly learn that that’s how you get the teacher’s attention and they’ll put their hand up. Now they’re not the kids that we’re seeing.

Colby: 18:18

Did an international survey a few years back put a whole great big, exhaustive list in of potential behaviours of concern? I got responses from kinship carers and foster carers from Western countries around the world On it. They could put a checkmark next to as many behaviours of concern that they were observing in their home and the most commonly reported was how demanding the children are Can’t speak on the phone, can’t have someone over for a coffee, can’t even go to the toilet or have a shower without them trying to maintain connection. We certainly do have kids who alternate between overly demanding and overly self-reliant. By self-reliant I’m talking about things, like you know, getting up in the night and raiding the fridge and the cupboards. Not even getting up in the night, just doing that during the day. But more often than not they’re just highly demanding. So this is the AAA model the way they think, the way they feel and what they’ve learned about how to get your needs met.

Colby: 19:29

So, moving on to step number four with regard to that behaviour of concern that you wrote down for the particular child a little bit earlier. And thinking about your answer to those previous three questions, how would they describe themselves? How fast is their motor running? What did they learn about how to get their needs met? I want you to consider what might be the real reason for the behaviour of concern. Write that down. What do you think is the real reasons or reasons for the behaviour? And, as it says on the handout, if you’re not quite sure, just think about those three further questions. What’s the purpose? Does the behaviour serve? What is their intention when engaged in the behaviour? What needs does the behaviour meet? The behaviour concern may be that they’re quite demanding and, as I said, that’s the most common complaint or observation of carers in this space.

Colby: 20:28

The conventional behaviour management strategy is to ignore them. Take away the reinforcer and it works. It works if that behaviour arose under conditions of consistent reinforcement. Now, our children were not raised under conditions of consistent reinforcement. In real life, in our life with our children, they’re not responsive to the carer’s attempts to extinguish the behaviour by not responding to it. They’ll just keep trying and trying, and trying, and trying and trying, because they’ve learned that if you keep going, eventually you’ll get what you need and eventually they get what they need.

Colby: 21:16

One of the most difficult one is headbanging in younger children. The advice is to ignore it. How do you ignore a younger child headbanging? If they got a consistent response to head banging, you wouldn’t have to ignore it much. If you went down that path, I would never recommend it before they stopped. But our kids wouldn’t do that. They would just keep going and going and going and often enough do so. I would say you should be turning your mind to the way the child thinks, to the way the child thinks, the way the child feels and what the child has learnt when you’re thinking about why the behaviour of concern is presenting itself.

Colby: 22:08

The other part of the operant conditioning paradigm that translates into conventional behaviour management is rewarding the good behaviour Our children. If you try to go down such a path, they doubt that people will actually give them the reward because they’ve learned that they’re unworthy, undeserving, the adults are unpredictable, unreliable, so that often enough they just go. If I can get that reward, give it to me now. No, you have to do the, but you have to pull up your socks. You have to do these behaviors that we are part of our um, our behavior management plan. Well, you’re not going to give it to me anyway. They may not say this often enough.

Colby: 22:53

Our children don’t say these things, but they definitely think it and if you work, if you’re interacting with them and you go, well, I think you were probably thinking they wouldn’t give it to you, to you anyway. And they just come to life and their eyes open and they and they’re like, yes, they wouldn’t have given it, because they find it difficult and maybe even are unmotivated to really say what’s going on in their head and their heart. We know they find it difficult because, depending on how long they’re in an impoverished early environment, early language learning is impacted and that’s why a lot of the interventions that I do and support are about supporting expressive language development, so that, because one of our problems is our kids express themselves through their behaviours rather than their words Often enough, that’s because they either don’t have the words or don’t think adults will listen to them anyway. So we’ve got to build confidence so adults understand their words and we’ve got to support them to develop their words. Punishment, of course, just that really sets them off. I knew you were this, that and the other, and I’m just bad and nobody loves me and I’m unlovable and I don’t deserve anything. Often our kids if you say to them you choose your punishment, they’ll choose something way worse than the adults had in mind. So that’s a clue to what’s going on in their head and in their heart. So trauma-informed care and practice is less about implementing conventional behavior management strategies and more about responding therapeutically to the real reasons for the behaviors. So the next one on the list is in consideration of all of your previous answers, how do you think this behaviour of concern should be responded to? Write that down. You may not put much store on what I’m saying and stay still conventional behaviour management, but I would suggest maybe it would be responding with understanding of what’s really going on here. So now what I want you to do is I want you to write down, now that you’ve identified what you think is the real reason for the behaviour, what you would do, how you would respond to it therapeutically, the actual things that you would do. So while you’re doing that if you’re still doing that, it’s okay I’ve just got a slide up here that represents a model for addressing those three key factors of attachment, arousal and accessibility needs provision.

Colby: 26:14

I like to think in terms of acronyms. I think acronyms are helpful for people. I’ve found Probably the main one I use is CARE. Care stands for Consistency, accessibility, responsiveness and Emotional Connectedness. That’s what’s in my books, for example. But I like the idea of aura a little bit better, partly because I’m a bit mischievous and in my profession, which is a very serious profession, we shouldn’t be talking about auras too much. But I’m not talking about auras in the metaphysical sense. I’m talking about the actual definition of aura, which is the distinctive atmosphere or quality that a person or a place projects, which is experienced by the young person, their felt experience of us and where they are. And it’s also a handy acronym for what I advocate. And it’s also a handy acronym for what I advocate that we be accessible.

Colby: 27:22

Being accessible for our kids is reassuring to them. Being proactively accessible is the best way to do it. Being accessible is reassuring. It lowers arousal. If the carer’s attention is on the child. That supports experiences that they’re a person of worth, that the adult is here and accessible to me, and it provides the basis for changing their learning from. I have to work really hard to control this person to make them respond to me, be there for me and respond to me. To this person. This person is there for me. So accessibility is all about being there, facilitating learning that the adult is there for them, which is reassuring, it lowers arousal and it also supports a more optimistic set of ideas about self, other and world Understanding.

Colby: 28:24

I often talk about the next three as one, in the sense that we can’t solve all problems in this space, but at least we can respond with understanding in our words, in our actions and in our expressed emotions. And when we do that, the child or young person experiences that we get it. Not only are we here for them, but we get it, we understand. Often that’s referred to as validation. Validation is like a psychological inoculation against later major mental health concerns. So our kids benefit from us responding with understanding in our words, in our actions and in our expressed emotions. So the you and or mean.

Colby: 29:21

The strategies that I suggest are that we speak their mind, that we reduce the number of questions that we ask them and rather, if we think we know, if we find ourselves going to ask them a question and we think we know what the answer is, should they give it. We just say the answer, don’t ask the question. Yeah, when we ask our kids questions, they think oh, another adult that doesn’t understand. Often enough they think that when we say the answer, their response is their experience is you get it? I’m a person of worth, I can trust you, and it also helps with developing their expressive language if we do it a lot. So the you in aura is being understanding.

Colby: 30:09

In our words, the R is responsive. We’re responding proactively to their needs. Why I say proactively is is this distinction? If a child does something and we respond, they only think we responded because they did something to make it so. So they’re not learning anything different than their historical learning, which is you have to control and regulate adults to get a response and get your needs met. But when we respond proactively to their needs, when we spend time thinking about the kids and their needs, so we look at this behaviour and we think, well, what’s really going on there with that behavior? And if we think it’s because they need reassurance that we’re there for them, well, what we’ll do is we’ll make sure that we attend practice with them in sport, for sport, if they’re playing sport, and make sure we get out to the games. It can be that we just make sure that we touch base with them a couple of more times during the day than we normally would proactively.

Colby: 31:24

I say to our carers for a few days, just write down all the things they ask of you or they do to get a need met. Yeah, all the things they ask for and all the things they do to get needs met. And I’ll say to carers can you anticipate any of them? Do they always ask for blah, blah, blah after dinner, after tea? Yeah, well, if they always ask for it, don’t wait for them to ask, get in first, just do it. When you do that, their experience now is you just did something, did it without me having to control and regulate you to make it. So. Their experience is I, you, you get me, I’m a person of worth, I can trust and depend on you. What a relief.

Colby: 32:22

So, responding proactively to needs supports, as all of these things do, supports, moving the kids up towards the secure end of the attachment representation spectrum lowers arousal and anxiety proneness. Remember, with anxiety, you’re going to see behaviors associated with fight, flight freeze, right, controlling aggressive, destructive fighting. That’s your fight. Hyperactive running, running, running away, exiting the classrooms, for example, flight freeze is just withdrawing, going away in their mind, not responding. Some people talk about form this these days as well, but the main things that people see are the fight, flight freeze type behaviors. So all of these things with the aura lower anxiety proneness and they facilitate a more optimistic learning that adults are there for you and they understand your needs and they will respond to them without you having to push their buttons or pull their strings all the time. And the last letter in aura is A and that’s attunement, or affective attunement.

Colby: 33:51

Now, attunement is just where you’re in sync with each other emotionally. Research has been done where they put heart rate monitors on mothers and infants during play and what they find is the heart rates vary in sync with each other. So very quickly, the child goes into sync with the mother’s heart rate and vice versa. The child goes into sync with the mother’s heart rate and vice versa. Heart rate is a sign of arousal or central nervous system activation. And, as I’ve said before, central nervous system activation is the physiological component of emotion. So that’s seen as physiological evidence of emotional connectedness in play, or attunement. What attunement does, amongst other things it’s really good for emotional development, it’s really good for perspective taking, it’s really good for socio-emotional reciprocity down the track and so on, but at the very least and fundamentally, what it communicates for the child is I’m here for you, I see you, I feel what you’re feeling. You are a person of worth, I can be trusted, I care about you, I’m here for you. The Tumor Experiences also address all three aspects of that AAA model. My reason for putting up and talking about aura is all of those elements in aura address the AAA model.

Colby: 35:22

Now my next question is if you respond to the real reason, what would you expect to happen? Write down what you think would happen if you respond to the real reason for the behaviour. There’s two questions that I ask carers what do you think is going on? And how will you know that my intervention has made a difference? So for carers, in terms of their care, it is we’re encouraging them to respond more to the reasons and less to just the behaviour of concern. How will they know that it’s made a difference? And I tell you that that is the hardest question that I ever ask of adults, whether they’re foster and kinship carers or teachers or even case managers and social workers.

Colby: 36:21

Like yourselves, we find it very easy to identify behaviours of concern, but what it would look like when there’s an improvement. People tend to find that really hard. It has a bit to do with this. I’m just going to put an image up. I want you to just look at it and notice what is the first thing that you notice about it. Does that make sense? Notice what you first notice about this image. When I use that slide in my training, very commonly people just call it out what stood out to you about that image? That array of maths equations, like that’s the most common thing that people notice about it, aside from oh, I’m not maths, I hate maths. We’re problem solvers. We’re programmed that way.

Colby: 37:29

Our central nervous system makes us look for problems to solve or privileges looking for problems, and this is why it’s a really easy question to answer. When I say what are the behaviours of concern, it becomes a really difficult question to answer when I say how will you know that we’ve been successful in our endeavours? What will you notice that’s changed Other than well? The behaviour will be less. It is a problem that our nervous system is very good at focusing on problems but not so good on noticing that 9 out of 10 was right. We’re not good at noticing the things that are going well, because that’s not the way we’re built. If we’re not noticing them very well, we can get bogged down in the problems of caring for these children. We skew towards looking for problems to solve. That’s just the way we are and that can be overwhelming for our carers and it’s not great for our kids, because our children are very susceptible to the looking glass self.

Colby: 38:40

The looking glass self is a construct that was first talked about over 100 years ago by a fellow called Charles Horton Cooley, who wrote a book that was published in 1902. But basically, the premise of the Looking Glass Self is that we see ourselves as we experience other people to see us. We see ourselves as we experience other people to see us. Now adults are sophisticated enough to try and influence how other people see them, but kids are not so sophisticated and teens just start in the process of being more and more sophisticated. So our children are very vulnerable to seeing themselves as we see them. So they see themselves as a problem more often than not, unless we can also identify some really positive things to look out for and acknowledge.

Colby: 39:41

The other problem with our tendency to be problem focused is this next slide. This is called the nine dot problem, and your task here is to put your pen on the page at one dot, one of them, and join up all nine dots with four straight lines without taking your pen off the page. The nine dot problem was developed by Edward de Bono. The problem focus we have is frustrating, so this rubs off on our kids. If we’re annoyed, they become agitated as well. So it’s important to know what success in our endeavours look like.

Colby: 40:56

Next to step eight, I’ve got the question how might a child or young person approach life and relationships differently if you respond in the way that you’ve written in step seven? I’m going to put a slide up that you might want to reference. You might reference it too, and you can also do that last one too. Step eight how might the child or young person approach life and relationships differently when you respond in the way that you proposed at step five and six? And obviously, by having this up, I’m suggesting that you be addressing the real reasons for the behaviours. They’re organised under arousal, attachment and accessibility. What I’ve tried to do in relation to getting behaviour management right is talk about, or get you thinking about what’s really going on, how we can respond to therapeutically to what’s really going on, and how will I know that we’re successful in our endeavours, that we’re getting it wrong. Thank you.

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Everyone Needs Reflective Space, Even the CEO

The concept of therapeutic practice in social care settings is often misunderstood or diluted, yet it remains one of the most powerful approaches for creating meaningful change in the lives of vulnerable young people. Simon Benjamin, with over two decades of experience across various care models, offers profound insights into what makes therapeutic practice genuinely effective.

At the heart of therapeutic practice lies a simple yet revolutionary concept: alignment throughout the entire organisation. As Simon explains, therapeutic care cannot be compartmentalised to frontline workers alone. The approach must be embedded from the CEO to the receptionist, creating a cohesive environment where everyone understands their role in the healing journey. This alignment is not merely about following procedures but about creating a culture where reflection, vulnerability, and trust become institutional values.

Simon’s journey from cleaning houses as a support worker to becoming CEO of the Lighthouse Foundation demonstrates how witnessing therapeutic practice at various organisational levels provides unique insights. His experiences at the Mulberry Bush School in the UK and the Lighthouse Foundation in Australia showed him what truly effective therapeutic environments look like. In these settings, policies weren’t just administrative documents but thoughtfully crafted guidelines that read “beautifully,” as if someone was speaking to you. This attention to detail reflects the depth of consideration given to every aspect of care.

Perhaps most revolutionary is Simon’s emphasis on reflective practice at every level of the organisation. He describes how even administration teams at the Mulberry Bush School had reflective spaces, despite having no direct clinical work. This practice acknowledges that everyone in the organisation contributes to the therapeutic environment, whether they’re working directly with clients or not. For leadership teams, these reflective spaces serve as mirrors, allowing them to examine their decision-making processes and reconnect with the core purpose of their work.

Simon offers a powerful metaphor for understanding why these structures are necessary: working in social care, particularly child protection, is like navigating rough terrain. Without proper supports like reflective practice and ongoing training, it’s like “stripping off the increased suspension” from an off-road vehicle. The result? People get “bashed up” – they burn out and leave, often without citing the true reasons for their departure.

What’s particularly challenging about implementing therapeutic practice is that it requires vulnerability from everyone involved, including leadership. Simon describes how, as a CEO, he maintained mandatory reflective spaces even for his director of fundraising and head of finance. Initially uncomfortable, these spaces became essential for ensuring all departments understood the work happening on the ground. During COVID-19, rather than reducing these reflective practices due to increased pressure, Simon’s team doubled them, recognising their critical importance during times of stress.

For organisations looking to implement therapeutic approaches, Simon emphasises the importance of leadership buy-in and understanding change management principles. Rather than imposing changes, he suggests engaging the entire organisation in the process, modelling the very approaches used with clients. This participatory approach not only increases buy-in but embodies the therapeutic principles being implemented.

As the social care sector continues to evolve, Simon’s vision calls for agreed standards of what constitutes therapeutic care. Without such benchmarks, the term risks becoming “a bit of a cheap word,” diluted to the point where any organisation can claim to be “trauma-informed” after minimal training. True therapeutic practice, like medication reaching its therapeutic level, must provide enough positive care experiences to actually impact lives and facilitate healing.

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About Simon

For two decades, Simon experienced a wide range of care models in disability, mental health, special education, out-of-home care and Aboriginal childcare services.

This included caring for deeply traumatised children in both community-based and state-run residential care homes. More than 10 years of this time was spent immersed in the well-established therapeutic milieu workplaces of The Mulberry Bush School in the United Kingdom, and Lighthouse Foundation in Australia, having been CEO for more than five years at the latter.

Simon now draws on this rich career experience, together with the latest research and evidence-based approaches, to empower organisational leaders, teams and frontline workers to better manage their own wellbeing and deliver optimal outcomes.

While his work supports a broad range of clients, Simon specialises in Out of Home Care, Mental Health, Homelessness sectors.

Simon’s vision is to see people, organisations and the human services sector deliver the care that vulnerable people need to enable them to reach their potential.

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Transcript:

Colby: 0:00

Welcome to the Secure Start podcast.

Simon: 0:03

That, for me, is the key of how therapeutic practice really works. Is the stuff that you would do with a child actually happens through the whole organisation?

Simon: 0:10

The senior leadership team had a reflective space, a clinical supervision space that was held regularly I think it was monthly and that was held right through. Even the administration team had a reflective space. I think that was the key thing in maintaining a therapeutic environment. The alignment has got to be through the whole system, from top to bottom, and the way I often describe the need for this in a leadership team is if you don’t, especially for a group supervision for a team, if you don’t provide the a group supervision for a team, if you don’t provide the space for it, people will talk somewhere, um, they’ll talk with their spouse, or they’ll talk, um, by the photocopier or, you know, have a private zoom with each other. The conversations will happen, but it’s best you bring them into an environment where they’re contained and you can have them as a group and, you know, get everyone’s perspective.

Simon: 1:04

I know, then, being as a CEO, the distance you feel when you’ve got suddenly a board to report to budgets, to meet financial pressures and you’re not in the day-to-day is not in your mind as much. A leader having supervision, enabled time to reflect on work things, that’s just for you. It’s not, you know, because you can talk with one direct report and you’ve got to be mindful what you’re sharing, you talk to your partner or whoever, and you’ve got to. You can’t share everything, but this person can share whatever you want and um, it’s just, yeah, it’s, it’s a bit of a release valve and many other beneficial things, I think, and it also connects you a bit with the work. You then have it. You see its benefits. You think actually I need to have this through the organization because everyone needs this.

Colby: 1:54

Welcome to the Secure Start podcast. I’m Colby Pearce, and joining me for this episode is an experienced leader and consultant with cross-sector experience. Before I introduce my guests, I’d just like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands we’re meeting on For me, the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains and for my guests, the Jagera, yugara and Turrgal people. And I’d just like to acknowledge the continuing connection that the living Aboriginal people feel to land, waters, culture and community, and pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging. My guest for this episode is Simon Benjamin.

Colby: 2:44

For two decades, simon experienced a wide range of care models in disability, mental health, special education, out-of-home care and Aboriginal childcare services. This included caring for deeply traumatised children in both community-based and state-run residential care homes community-based and state-run residential care homes. More than 10 years of this time was spent immersed in the well-established therapeutic milieu workplaces of the Mulberry Bush School in the United Kingdom and the Lighthouse Foundation in Australia, where he was CEO for more than five years. Simon now draws on this rich career experience, together with the latest research and evidence-based approaches, to empower organisational leaders, teams and frontline workers to better manage their own wellbeing and deliver optimal service outcomes, while his work supports a broad range of clients. Simon specialises in out-of-home care, mental health and homelessness sectors. Simon’s vision is to see people, organisations and the human services sector deliver the care that vulnerable people need to enable them to reach their potential. Welcome, simon. Is there anything you’d like to add to that summary of you?

Simon: 4:11

Oh no, that’s quite a good roundup. I think I probably need to condense it a little bit more. But yeah, no, that sounds fine with me. Yeah, I probably would add. Actually, just on thinking of it, just my main focus in my consultancy, working with kind of social um organizations and social care is therapeutic practice. Yes, the uh it’s the recognition of the importance of therapeutic practice and how to adopt it and integrate it into regular service delivery, regular interactions with children, youth and families. Yeah, Awesome.

Colby: 4:48

Well, let’s get into it. So the first question I have of you is a fairly large one, so hopefully it doesn’t feel too much, but I just wanted to ask you what led you into a career supporting leaders and teams deliver best outcomes for their clients, including in the social care sector, and who and what were your major influences?

Simon: 5:16

Okay, well, look, it started for me around 23 years ago. I was new to Australia well new-ish. I just got married, I just got my visa to work here and so I’m from England originally and I was looking at different options. I had an honest degree in psychology from the UK options. I had an honest degree in psychology from the UK and I just felt right moving into a career where, into the care industry basically.

Simon: 5:51

So I started out as a home carer for my local council, working supporting families who had children with a disability. It started with house cleaning. So here I was with my degree and everything else, cleaning houses, which my father thought was just a disgrace um, but that soon progressed into becoming a respite carer for the, for the families, and and then I also started working in disability um and then, after a couple years of doing that, I went into youth mental health um and then adult mental health in day programs and residential um facilities and it just started progressing from there. Then it worked into a subacute unit where adults who had been in a psychiatric facility. They went into this place for about four weeks to kind of begin the transition back into the community.

Simon: 6:40

So I had a kind of varied experience, so I had a kind of varied experience, and then it was when I started working in residential care in Melbourne predominantly, that I kind of started to feel I found my niche and I then moved over to Perth for a year and worked in their first therapeutic group home. That was run by the Department of Child Protection it’s still running, that’s the same home and we had a team leader there who was from the UK it was quite recent and he’d worked in therapeutic facilities in England and actually was a, was a consultant, was kind of consulting, went around helping group homes that weren’t functioning too well, and so that was where I kind of had my first taste of therapeutic interactions one-to-one with, you know, children who were these were children up to age 12 quite violent presentations, and I was in that for a year and then from there I went to the UK and worked, worked at the Marlborough School for four and a half years um, which really um was an amazing experience to see how a well-developed, well-established therapeutic organization works um and where their practice is, from the receptionist to the ceo and everything in between um all fully aligned, and that gave me just a you know, just a great experience. I was actually working in the team that worked with the families. So while a lot of work was done with the children while they were at the residential school for 38 weeks of the year, then they went home and sometimes they went home to a family where the dysfunction originated from. So my work was to work with families to help them make progress. Progress also. And then when I came back from there, I spent a year at the Victorian Aboriginal Child Care Agency and then I went to Lighthouse Foundation working in that relationship with children and youth, where you actually build trust and take them on the journey or walk with them while they’re experiencing their own change and self-discovery about things that have impacted their lives.

Simon: 8:55

So then, when I moved into a CEO role, it was quite different. I was no longer, you know, interacting, or you know supervising carers or directly working with youth and children. Interacting, or you know supervising carers or directly working with youth and children and um, I then, you know, we went as a leading organization. It’s a whole different set of skills to learn and um, coming out from the other side of that, I mean it was a great experience. We grew the organization. It kind of doubled in size, financially. We went into, we started a foster care program, but that was new to the adopting a therapeutic approach. That was new to the sector. It had some variations to existing programs, and the core work of therapeutic practice, which is about the interactions really the interactions with children, youth and then within teams, is based on things like establishing trust.

Simon: 9:54

So you need to establish trust with your client or your participants, or just the child or youth or family, and to do that you have to have a level of vulnerability yourself to demonstrate in a professional capacity, um, and then from that trust you can then engage in and go through difficult experiences with them where they push your boundaries and challenge you and they feel your boundaries and vice versa.

Simon: 10:17

And and through that um relationship there’s trust built and then things can be started to overcome.

Simon: 10:24

And what I loved is um you know is is translating that into a management situation where, uh, I work with leadership teams now to help them be vulnerable with each other, to help them build trust so that they can actually thrash out the things they need to thrash out and make good decisions.

Simon: 10:40

Because the um work you do with with um with children, youth or families is is gray, it’s there’s no clear answer as to what you know. You’re personally working with needs in that particular moment and um, and so you need to have, build that relationship to help them, so you know what you can do to be of assistance and you know they know what they need from you and vice versa. And it’s not it’s difficult to articulate. The same is true of a leadership team of an organization. They have to work in the gray because they have to make decisions where there’s no, not necessarily a right or wrong answer, and they need the same set of skills to be able to work with each other. And that’s why I work in two different spaces that seem unrelated but actually have similar challenges. So that’s kind of how I’ve got to where I work here now.

Colby: 11:31

Fantastic Quite, the varied history. I mean really, basically, in a journalistic world it would be from the, I guess, from the floor up, you know, the mail person or whatever, right up to the editor of the newspaper and then freelancing after. That would be a similar kind of metaphor. You mentioned two in there, two very probably well-known, particularly the Mulberry Bush School and also the Lighthouse Foundation, which is well known to many of our listeners and to me. Um, you told me a little story a bit earlier about how you came to work in um, your first two jobs, uh, in when you returned to australia. I don’t. I think people be interested. Find that a little bit interesting to hear that story told.

Simon: 12:25

So I was at the Mulberry Bush School.

Simon: 12:31

The team I worked in was often the team that showed people around, when we had visitors, because the care workers or the teaching staff were often engaged with the children, obviously. So I’d showed many visitors around, but two visitors in particular. I firstly I think halfway through my tenure there I showed around Susan Barton, who’s the founder of Lighthouse Foundation and one of the executive directors at the time, and they said to me because you know through conversation I was with them for about an hour and a half that you know I’d been living in Melbourne for eight years, ten years, and I was intending to return at some point. And they said look, whenever you come back, please get in touch. It would be lovely to see if there’s an opportunity for you to work with us. So that was that Two years later, when I was actually put in my resignation, I was due to be leaving in a couple of months to come back to Melbourne.

Simon: 13:20

And I then showed around Adela Holmes with a friend of hers, and she’d been to the Mulberry Bush before, but she was having a second visit and I said to her oh, you know, I found out she was from Melbourne. I told her I was returning there and then she said oh, look, do you, have you found a job here? And I said I haven’t started looking. And then, long story short, I ended up working with Adela for just under a year at the Victorian Aboriginal Childcare Agency. So yes, there’s two people who I showed around and ended up working for both of them.

Colby: 13:50

Yes, and of course Adela has already been on the pod and yeah. So through that process of acquiring experiences and working in some really quite interesting places, were there any particular influences over your development that you would be happy to share with us, both the work environments that you were in and their approach to the work, or thought leaders, I guess, in the sector.

Simon: 14:33

Sure, I think probably there were some workers that impacted me that you know. I don’t remember some of their names just their approaches.

Simon: 14:45

But I think probably the first one to impact me was um, the um team. There’s house supervisor in the house in in Perth where I worked and um, he just had a very matter of fact um kind of approach and um, I think uh, gave me confidence in what I was doing. I’ve been working, um, I think this is one thing I’m going to say here’s probably quite key for some residential care workers, because when I first came into residential care, I didn’t as and I hadn’t been a parent at that point, I hadn’t had my first child, and I think actually being a parent puts you in a good stead to some degree, because I didn’t know what normal was, what should a normal, what normal child be doing, and how do I engage with this person. That’s a basic level of training that I didn’t have. I had no training actually and he really helped me develop my own person, to interact, which really was to encourage me just to be me.

Simon: 15:41

And I think that because I saw all these other kind of youth workers and they were really hip and really cool and I thought I got to be like them and I just I just wasn’t me. I just, you know, wasn’t quite hip and cool and um, and I then found in time that, um, uh, just through his encouragement, that actually they just needed a person, um, who, just a person, who is predictable, reliable, and it really encouraged me to be myself. So he was one influence Danny Burnett was his name in.

Colby: 16:12

Perth.

Simon: 16:13

Give him a shout because he was excellent. I think he’s still a year or two ago. He was still there, from what I recall.

Colby: 16:20

I was just going to jump in and say in authenticity is really still, I guess, talked about as being very important in this sector, because the kids see through fakeness very, very quickly and easily.

Simon: 16:38

That’s right, yeah, yeah, and I completely agree. Let me think yeah, and I completely agree, let me think, I think from there. When I worked at the Marlbury Bush School I can’t really point to any particular individual, but just the whole approach of that school really resounded with me and gave me again even further confidence to be who I was, to raise my voice in forums where to challenge ideas, because that’s what they did really well. There was one situation I remember there was one particular child that was causing, amongst you know, thirsty children that were all high, complex presentations. One was really pushing the boundaries of you know the different things the school was trying to do. And I remember the director of the time calling a meeting with some key individuals to kind of say we’re calling for different approaches as to what people think. And it was really amazing that, you know, the senior people were actually kind of saying we want everyone’s input here because this is a difficult situation for us to manage. And that really gave me like wow, this is a great way of just coming up with ideas. Brainstorming, decision-making really shows the nature of therapeutic practice that everyone’s involved. We want everyone’s skills on the table, everyone’s ideas, and so that was a good experience, a good influence there.

Simon: 17:59

Adela was also, I think, helped refine my approach a little bit. I think I love her dogged passion for the work and how. You know it was much more than a job for Adela and others in particular, and I think I probably found the same in Susan Barton as well, like you know, incredible commitment, um, and would fight, you know, for the kids um, tooth and nail if she had to. Um, yes, and um the other others on the journey, um, but they’re probably some of the, the main ones. I can probably list a few more names, but I’ll leave it there.

Colby: 18:41

It’s interesting because, um, you mentioned everyone being making a contribution and and kind of like a an open and flat structure in a way in terms of putting heads together. And, um, my most recent past uh podcast guest was Graeme Kerridge and he’s had a long and distinguished career in healthcare management internationally. But he started his professional career at the Cotswold community where Barbara Docker-Drysdale, who started the Mulberry Bush School, was the therapeutic consultant there. And what you just said about the Mulberry Bush not surprised or unsurprisingly is very similar to what impressed Graham about his work at the Cotswold community. So there’s an alignment between, um, those, those two places, and their practices. That, um, you know when you think about it, if you were exposed to that, I think, in around about the year 2000 or thereabouts, early 2000s. Is that correct?

Simon: 19:58

uh, no, for me it was at the Mulberry Bush uh.

Colby: 20:00

2009 to 2005 well, even even mean there’s 30 years difference between what Graeme’s describing at the Cotswold community.

Simon: 20:12

It really speaks, I think, to the enduring wisdom of Barbara Dockard, rysdale, really, and others who through those two seminal ventures, the Mowbray Bush School and the Cotswold community, yeah, and, if I can pick up on that, I think just to pinpoint because the articulation of, I think, what the keys are, there is a confidence in the approach to kind of say I don’t know, I don’t know what to do, I need to consult with others, and that’s what I loved about that that was really encouraging in the mobile brush was there was a lot of teamwork where people were just being really honest and vulnerable I don’t know what to do, or I’ve tried this and even people who experienced the people of at Modigrish have been there like 20 years but would still consult, and that, for me, I saw some of the best teamwork I’ve ever experienced where, in one of the teams I was in, it was actually at the point when I knew I was leaving and I was in the midst of thinking, oh, I’m going to so miss this, because you had real people of a lot of experience just pondering and discussing ideas and how are we going to do this, how are we going to break it through?

Simon: 21:33

And you know, there was so much thought that went into the children’s lives that it made such a difference. It was, yeah, incredible. So I think, yeah, that vulnerability of to be confident enough to say I don’t know, that’s consult.

Colby: 21:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s wonderful. I love for people to be thinking about what they’re doing. Too often they, you know, in the pressure of these complex work environments, people are in the pressure of these complex work environments. People are looking for the procedural response, or, you know, the easy solution or the straightforward solution suggestion. And John Whitwell was funny and I know you listened to his podcast when he said, when he made the transition from being the principal at the Cotswold community over to the UK’s first therapeutic foster care program and in his initial experiences there, staff would come to him with a question and he would say, well, I don’t know, I’ll have to think about that. And the staff were like, what? You know, you’re the ceo, we should be able to come to you for an answer. So, yeah, it’s, I think.

Simon: 22:52

I think adopting that stance that um, all, all humans, all, all young humans, and all situations, um, deserve a bit of thought, uh, about, you know, in terms of how we we’re delivering a service to them yeah, that’s right, and unfortunately it flies in the face sometimes of a government funding system than once um at um detailed outcomes of what will happen if they invest in a certain thing, and it can be, and meeting those two is another point of discussion.

Colby: 23:32

Yeah sure, Simon. We’ve heard about your work in a number of organisations, including those with an overarching therapeutic model or approach. I’m really interested to hear from you about what challenges you encountered or saw in maintaining a consistent therapeutic approach or practices across organisations, and how these were overcome.

Simon: 23:59

Sure, I think the challenge is really, if you have buy-in at the top, yeah, organisations that. So the Mulberry Bush and at Lighthouse it needed the leaders to say this is how our organisation is going to roll and to maintain it. I think probably the strongest, the strongest, this was done probably um strongly at the mulberry bush, where they had detailed policies written up that described how they would do things, even to the point of um. At the mulberry bush they were able to certainly in my day, but I was the physical restraint of children if need be, and they had detailed policies that described how and when they would you know, use this and why. And the policy read beautifully Like it was a very well thought out and it was as if it was like someone speaking to you giving you guidance and training. That’s how the policy was written, so you can tell it had been formed after you know a long time and been refined.

Simon: 25:11

And another practice that they had was that the senior leadership team had a reflective space, a clinical supervision space that was held regularly. I think it was monthly, and that was held regularly. I think it was monthly um, and and that was held right through. Even the administration team had a reflective space and they had no. They were doing no clinical work, no therapeutic work. They had interaction with the children because the children would walk through reception, so they were. Even the way they interacted had had importance, which is why they were part of the supervision process so that structure was right.

Simon: 25:44

The way through the system and that structure was right the way through the system. The policies were right the way through the system and I think that was the key thing in maintaining a therapeutic environment. The alignment has got to be through the whole system, from top to bottom. I’ve seen in other organisations where I’ve worked where it’s just the program is the therapeutic program and the rest of the organisation doesn’t have the therapeutic parts to it. That doesn’t work so well and I’ve seen one example I can recount, I won’t name names.

Simon: 26:16

I was a therapeutic advisor to a residential care program and I didn’t have the final say, I was just the advisor and I gave some advice on a situation that was of a young person and there’d been a number of like them leaving the home and it was getting a bit more dangerous and you know different things were being tried. I made some recommendations that they should do this and not that and blah, blah. Someone two levels more senior than than than even the person I was working with, um vetoed that suggestion and went with their um. You know their direction on things, having not really much contact with the day-to-day and what I said would happen if they did that ended up happening and that for me, is just an indicator of what happens when the whole organisation is not in alignment and in the same systems. I know then, being as a CEO, the distance you feel when you’ve got suddenly a board to report to budgets, to meet financial pressures, and the day-to-day is not in your mind as much. And then so you have this pressure and you kind of think, okay, I need to make this decision.

Simon: 27:36

And then I found then having that reflective group where we’ve got the director of care and the therapeutic input in the room helped ground my thinking and bring me back to the key of the work. And I can see how you’ve got great workers on the ground, great social workers, who then become senior leaders, how they lose touch, and I know that some of them. You know one CEO I met. He was going to a residential care home every month at least to go and have dinner with them to stay in touch, which which I thought was just fantastic, but that that can ground you to a degree. But I think having a regular thing through the system is the thing that actually holds it. And the challenges are you get very busy and often the first thing to go when you get really busy is the reflective practice, because no business is being exchanged other than just each person’s well-being, which is very important, and so it’s the first thing to go.

Simon: 28:33

Now. What we had at Lighthouse is one I instituted the leadership team having a regular space. It was recommended to me by my director of care and I completely related to it, having been in her position, um not long before. So I agreed and I maintained it the whole time I was there, um, and it was mandatory space even for our director of fundraising, even for our head of finance, and for them it was an uncomfortable space at the beginning because they had no idea what it was all about, but you know, essential. So even when they were signing off you know large invoices, they had an understanding as to what was going on because they were a bit more in touch with the work. So I think, and just to give one example, when things got more difficult, like especially during COVID I was CEO during, you know, during the first part of COVID we actually doubled our reflective practice as a leadership team rather than reduced it, because we had some more critical decisions to make and we knew it was important that we um were having the the buffer effect of having a space to think properly as a team.

Simon: 29:37

The way I describe it to people is like this um, I describe the work in in care, especially in child protection type work, as it’s like you’re working in rougher terrain and you wouldn’t take a normal road vehicle in an off-road environment and effectively the kind of work is off-road environment. You would have a vehicle that’s got a four-wheel drive with higher suspension, and I find what happens is if you don’t have things in place like reflective practice through the whole system, ongoing training not once in a year training, ongoing training as mandatory things for your team, then you’re basically stripping off the increased suspension, you’re stripping off all those features and you’re sending a road car into an off-road environment. And what happens? It gets bashed up, basically, and people leave and they get burnt out and they don’t tell you that’s the reason they’re leaving. They give another reason, but that’s often the case.

Colby: 30:33

I think there’s so much in there in your response there, simon, that I also have had varied experiences and I have been involved in delivering as a consultant, external consultant in therapeutic care.

Colby: 30:50

I’ve also been involved in the delivery of a therapeutic care program and I just want to maybe get you to expand a little bit more based on my experience. And my experience would be that management want something, they want a program to be rolled out, a program of training for staff. So it comes from management, but that’s where it ends, that’s where you don’t hear further really from management, but that’s where it ends, that’s where you don’t hear further really from management. You then, and in my case I’ve been left to just roll out the program, the therapeutic caregiving, training and implementation with a particular program, and that just didn’t work from my point of view. It didn’t work out well at all. So it needs more than just to be management approved. It needs to be as you described. It needs to be part of the whole structure, rolled out across the whole structure of the organisation, at every level.

Simon: 32:11

And I’m not.

Colby: 32:13

I was just going to say I’m not sure. In the bigger organisations. I’m interested to hear your thoughts on how management might be more involved in the rollout of a particular endeavour or program, given that some of our bigger organisations are so multifaceted you know especially our statutory child protection organisations.

Simon: 32:40

Well, I know, look, I don’t uh a lot of the detail behind models like, for example, the sanctuary model. I know that their process has a lot of change management features in, where they they consider it a change management process, which is actually really what it is. So you’re effectively bringing in a cultural change to an organization, of the way it works. So it it kind of requires the leadership to drive it, and if the leadership aren’t really involved, then for me I just, you know, make very clear what will happen if they’re not involved, that it will be an investment that will peter out after a certain amount of time and they’ll end up cancelling decisions that they kind of initially went ahead for and not see how they’ve got from A to B. But they’ve got there. So, yeah, it is very much because it’s a different way of working, it’s a retraining, it really is, and I think the intention is often good.

Simon: 33:36

We want these children healed or we want them on a better life trajectory, or to start on a better life trajectory. So go and do that. But there’s often, sometimes the the you hear this a lot for people who don’t know the implications of things is there’s a, sometimes a notion of can you just go and fix these children, and this program will fix them and and it’s, and it’s just not to do that Like you don’t go to the doctors to get fixed, you go there to be healed and treated, and that’s actually the. You know, we kind of use that kind of language and yeah. So I think there’s a lot more involved. It has to come from the top and I think sometimes, you know, in terms of engaging with an organisation, it’s if a consultant I’m not saying I do this or that others should she could say if your leadership don’t buy into this, I won’t work with you because there’s no point it’s a waste of time.

Colby: 34:30

exactly I, I and and that was exactly what you were reading my mind I was thinking there’s no way I would go in and as a consultant to or even to roll out um program without the leadership participating in it. Again, yeah, because you put so much of your wisdom, your knowledge, your acquired knowledge and you put so much heart into the endeavor and when it doesn’t work out, that’s very painful. I guess it certainly was for me to have that experience in this sector.

Simon: 35:15

Yeah, and I think also saying no when they want you to say yes is you know, is in some ways, you know, when you say no to them, it’s kind of saying actually no. This this takes you to, even if it takes another six months or a year to decide if you probably want to do it, it takes your full commitment, otherwise you know it’s not going to work I think, yeah, I think they’re really awesome points.

Colby: 35:44

Yeah, how do you reconcile that? Sorry, these are questions without notice, but you know, there’s also and I’ve been guilty of it at times a school of thought that is that you achieve change bottom up, or that you try to and I kind of try to do that in my work. I try to capture the I I kind of try to do that in my work. I try to, I try to capture the hearts and minds of the work of the workforce in this sector through not just podcasts like this but youtube videos that I make writing books, you know that sort of thing and try and facilitate something you know an embryonic, bottom-up, ground-up progression towards a more trauma-informed organization well, I think I mean it.

Simon: 36:30

Look, it really depends on the organization.

Simon: 36:31

I think, you know, if you don’t have the buy-in from the top, you start working on the ground, it could be that the, the whole organization starts to shift in that direction.

Simon: 36:38

It’s just whether the leadership provide the authorizing environment for the said program to do what it needs to do, and I think then it then needs the people in that program to be able to articulate what they’re doing in such a way where it’s properly communicated and received to the leadership. Um, so I think, yeah, I mean, you know, I wouldn’t turn away if someone said, look, we want to train this thing because I think, like you say, there’s a hope that it will start to progress through um, and it really would be on um, things being properly, you know, documented, recorded, and and they’re being, you know, um, the, they’re being some um, not results, but some progress in the lives of the children. We’ve actually we’re seeing, like instance, reduce, we’re seeing people the school attendance picking up, you know if that’s been an issue or different things, and then kind of go okay, what is this, what, how is this? Just turning around, and then it could be that that will start to enthuse the more senior levels.

Colby: 37:40

Yeah, yeah you’ve, you’ve had a I mean across your career, of which spans decades. You’ve you’ve worked from yeah, all the way from down, uh, at cleaning homes, right through to ceo and consultant, um to ceos and organizations and leadership teams. I’m just wondering if you, with all that wisdom that you’ve gathered, is there something that you would like to see happen in a cross-sector way that will help to realise the ambitions of all involved of better outcomes for the young people that we deliver services on behalf of?

Simon: 38:25

Sure, I think you know, I think when being the role of CEO, I was fortunate enough to be recruited in Victoria to like a working group of 12 leaders. At the time it was 2016. It was under there was a roadmap to reform, to reform the child protection system, and it was originally designed. It was like a co-design. It was actually probably in the end we were more consulted as opposed to designing, and it gave me I was on that for a few years, a number of years, and it gave me an overview as to why the sector looks at different things to different models and everything. And what I kind of realized was that, um, therapeutic care is not really understood um in in, um in among, even among ceos, um, there’s the people that kind of sit through the training, kind of they might say that you know that we’ve got trauma-informed programs and it’s trauma-informed and the whole thing, and I think that’s that’s become a I’m sad to say, a bit of a cheap word now, because any, most people can experience a bit of training and say that they’re trauma-informed. It’s whether they I mean I know there are other organizations who’ve broken this down I think it’s been good that you know you can be trauma aware, um, but then are you actually you know trauma practised and those different things, and I’ve you know, I did some work myself on what actually does therapeutic mean? Because one forum I was in the government minister at the time wasn’t in the forum, but I was told by someone who connected with them quite frequently that the government minister didn’t believe therapeutic practice worked and I thought how has that happened? Obviously, what’s been represented to them it must not have been genuinely therapeutic. And what that shows to me is, among many other things I’ve seen, is there needs to be some agreed standards of what therapeutic care is. What I did like in England at the Marlborough School was there was the Marlborough School were involved back then. I’m not sure if they are still now. It’s called the Therapeutic Communities and I think it was called the Community of Communities and they basically peer reviewed each other on a regular cycle to check their policies, to check their different parts of their practice and everything to actually be accredited as a therapeutic community. I think that needs to be happening, certainly in Australia and probably internationally, where there are agreed standards that if you’re not following these standards then you’re not therapeutic, because for me, therapeutic and not just trauma informed, but therapeutic.

Simon: 41:12

And by therapeutic I mean it’s kind of borrowed from my understanding, is borrowed from the medical term relating to medication. When you take a medication, it reaches its therapeutic level when it’s starting to impact and it has an impact on the disease or condition it’s treating or fighting. And that therapeutic level is dependent on how much you weigh and different things. I could take the dose of a child for a particular medication and it won’t reach its therapeutic level. For me it’s the same.

Simon: 41:46

I believe, when working with people who experience trauma, are they receiving enough of the good care experiences to actually start to impact their lives? Where they start to, you know, there’s repair of their attachment style, there’s repair of their experiences. Where they don’t respond in the same ways, they learn new ways of responding. That’s when the healing starts to take place. That’s when the therapeutic is having an impact. I think a lot of places that call themselves trauma-informed or therapeutic, if they go to the level of calling themselves therapeutic, aren’t actually reaching that what I call therapeutic level. And I think that’s what’s needed, because then you’ll have a minister who will start to see programs that are actually working and bringing change and will then say, okay, it’s worth investing in. So I think there needs to be, across the board, some standards that are set, and then I think the number of organizations or programs that are called therapeutic will drop off and the real ones will emerge. That are called therapeutic will drop off and the real ones will emerge.

Colby: 42:53

And I love that idea that you were talking about with the community of communities in the UK getting together and probably collectively agreeing some standards against which they reviewed each other, yeah, and kept each other accountable in the process in doing that and kind of. That allows me to segue, I think, a bit into. You’ve mentioned a number of times already about leadership having the opportunity to have their own reflective practice groups. I’m just wondering what you would see as being the key benefits that are derived from leadership of social care organisations having their own supervision group supervision, reflective practice supervision. You’ve talked about the benefit for the program in terms of implementation and alignment through the organisation, but what do chief executives and others get out of supervision?

Simon: 44:10

I think it provides a mirror. I mean, can you imagine going through weeks and weeks and weeks but never looking in a mirror to see how you look, to see how you’re responding, how you’re doing things? Because for me, clinical supervision is someone reflecting back to you what’s coming out of you and to have that reflected back for you to then go. Is this the way I want to be making decisions? Is that you know, and you know I’m pleased to say, a lot of the time, or some of the time, what was reflected back to me, I thought, oh, I’m quite pleased with my approach on that. But it also allowed me to refine some things and I think that’s probably what’s missing. I would say for a ceo who’s come from more the business world and comes into an environment there’d be hang on, what’s all this? You know fluffy stuff I need to get involved in. It’s probably similar to them having a coach, because a coach I’ve had I had a coach as a ceo and incredibly helpful because, um, they get to. It’s like a sounding board and it’s many different things and I think probably the clinical space is similar in many respects but also gets down to you know, you being in touch with what’s going on inside with you, especially when it comes to decision-making. You have a lot of tensions to hold, your communication has to be very measured in different forums and um, and you’re holding on a lot of stress that you’re often not aware of or you are aware of but not how much is impacting different things that you’re doing.

Simon: 45:45

And the way I often describe the need for this in a leadership team is, if you don’t, especially for a group supervision for a team, if you don’t provide the space for it, people will talk somewhere, um, they’ll talk with their spouse or they’ll talk um by the photocopier or, you know, have a private zoom with each other.

Simon: 46:05

The conversations will happen, but it’s best you bring them into an environment where they’re contained and you can have them as a group and, you know, get everyone’s perspective and and I think the same as a leader, having supervision enabled time to reflect on work things. That’s just for you. It’s not, you know, because you can talk with one direct report and you’ve got to be mindful of what you’re sharing. You talk to your partner or whoever, and you can’t share everything, but this person can share whatever you want and it’s just yeah, it’s a bit of a release valve and many other beneficial things, I think, and it also connects you a bit with the work. You then have it. You see its benefits. You think actually I need to have this through the organisation because everyone needs this.

Colby: 46:48

Yeah, that’s.

Colby: 46:50

Yeah, that’s really a very important point that if um, um, modeling the model is a, is a, um, a term that is used, I guess, um in in our work a lot um, that, that idea that you just presented, that um of supervisors modelling the model but if they can see and feel the benefit for themselves, then perhaps hopefully they’re more likely to say this should be happening all through the organisation.

Colby: 47:31

And again, I say there’s a tremendous benefit in people just having the opportunity to think about what they’re doing. Yeah, and the other thing that I really liked in what you said there was about that people will talk anyway, but what people probably need is the benefit of a containing space, is that you have that person that structures and manages the interaction in such a way that people can be vulnerable and hopefully it doesn’t invoke defences that mean that they shy away from deep and accurate self-reflection as well as reflection on the work. Yeah, love it. So my final question to you would be if you were asked to give advice to an organisation that was just starting out on developing a therapeutic milieu and a therapeutic model and practice in it, what key advice do you think you would be wanting to give them.

Simon: 48:53

Okay, the first thing, based on probably what I said earlier, was um, just to ensure that the leadership are on board um and to um. So, yeah, it was to be very clear on for the leadership you know, I and um I on board with this and just to make sure that they understand that the investment is obviously going to take time and probably to kind of educate them a bit on what it is like to change a culture and to do a bit of work on change management practices. Because, I mean, one thing I saw in change management once I attended a masterclass on it once was actually to was to will, be to the organisation, was for the leadership to go to the organisation to kind of say we need to make this change and, you know, explore why, to get the buy-in and then kind of go to them how do you think we should do this change and open it up? Obviously, there’s going to be parameters, there’ll be things that we suggested that we’d know, but they need to be explained as to why. Because then you’ll be taking the organisation on a journey with you and they’ve been able to contribute to the process and I think because in doing that you’re actually modelling the way you’d interact with a child, which is really the way that that, for me, is the key of how therapeutic practice really works is the stuff that you would do with a child actually happens through the whole organization. And so you would say with a child look, there’s this.

Simon: 50:30

You know, I’ll give an example of a challenging behavior. There’s this behavior that’s going on and we can’t keep doing this. Do you understand the reasons why? Oh yeah, because thingy gets hurt and you’re doing things you don’t want to do. How do we help you with that? And it’ll be the same thing you do with the staff.

Simon: 50:45

We need to make this change.

Simon: 50:46

How do we go about doing this in a way that’s going to work for everyone as best as we can do it and, be honest, not everyone’s going to like this. Some of you may want to leave, and that’s all right, but how can we leave in a really good way if you are going to leave and and just talk it through and then start to introduce things you need to introduce? Look, we’re going to need some training, we’re going to need to rewrite some policies, we’re going to need to do a whole change and it’s going to take time and we’ll check in with each other as we go and just take it on that kind of journey and that’s, that’s really like a just a thumbnail sketch just to some of the things that are involved. I believe, um, but it’s, I think also in the same thing of working where you work with a child you meet as a consultant, I’d meet an organization where they are and and take them where they are and map out. Map out the steps and make it realistic with a constant review process.

Colby: 51:38

Great, well, look, there’s so many takeaways in there for me and, I hope, for the people who are listening to this podcast as well. Thank you very much for your time and being gracious enough to accept the invitation before you go. I do give everyone these days. I didn’t the first couple of podcasts, but then I thought I’d be a good thing to do give you a chance to ask me a question without notice. I’ve asked you a lot, um, so I’m wondering if there’s a question curly or otherwise, otherwise that you might want to ask me before we finish up.

Simon: 52:18

Sorry, I think probably the. I guess one thing is I like to learn off of people is what’s the greatest thing that you’ve learned in this sector? So it could be an error you made or something like that. What’s something, that kind of really a situation you went through that you learned. Wow, this really taught me a huge thing. What did you learn?

Colby: 52:47

There’s quite a few different things. I’ve learned about what I think is fundamentally important, and I’ve talked about what I think is fundamentally important, and I’ve talked about that in previous podcasts. I think that the way we manage a person’s felt self-worth is really important, but I think the thing that is really jumping around in my head and I’ll speak it is that not all problems can be fixed, but at least they can be understood. Yeah, so what I mean by that is that, and particularly when you’re working and interacting with our children and young people, we can’t even, we shouldn’t even pretend. And when you said earlier about people who say, well, you know, I’ve got this program or whatever and it’s going to fix the trauma, as I said, I always tell people to avoid those ones like the plague.

Colby: 53:55

But, yeah, when you’re working with children and young people, there’s a number of challenges that they have, not least of which is the challenge of going to school every day that we can’t just say, oh well, we’re just going to remove that from your life, you don’t have to go to children. Just say, oh well, we’re just going to remove that from your life, you don’t have to go to children. There’s a legal impediment for us doing that, but at least we can acknowledge the experience of the child, of how their experience of going to school, the challenges that they face of going to school, the challenges that they face, and we can turn our mind to how we can respond therapeutically to those challenges. I think what I’ve, the greatest intervention, I think, is to be able to communicate understanding of the person in our thoughts, in our actions and in our sorry, in our words, in our actions and in our expressed emotions.

Colby: 55:05

I think that’s what I’ve learned acknowledgement, validation, empathy, therapeutic actions they’re, they’re the things that I think um, that I’ve you know, learned, are the most important yes, I think, just maybe I’ll put it in a bit of a reframe.

Colby: 55:28

I think what you’re saying is just um, for people to be um, felt that they’re, they feel they’ve been properly experienced for the true people that they are and understood that they’ve been understood that school is difficult and yeah, there is somewhat mischievously, because I’m a little bit of a mischievous person, I started thinking of acronyms in relation to the content that I, not a long time ago, but the content that I write and, um, I was thinking about the term aura now, and aura has got a whole kind of new agey vibe about it. But the actual aura really in the dictionary sense means it’s that distinctive quality or atmosphere of a place or a person. Right, and I think when I do my next edition or do another book, if, when and if probably a bit more of an if, I will probably structure it more around at least the therapeutic care side of things, more around this acronym of AURA. So not only is AURA the felt experience of a place and the people in it, but it means that those people are accessible, so they’re present, they’re with you, their facilitating feelings of being heard and understood, acknowledged, important, a person of worth in their words, understanding, in their actions, their responsiveness to the experience of the young person and in their outward expressed emotions and through attunement, facilitating attunement experiences.

Colby: 57:32

So I think, yeah, aura probably encapsulates a lot of the responses. I also am the author of the AAA model, which is a published model and is about my learnings about the inner experiences of the children. But I might talk about that when I get a similar question in another podcast. But yeah, that’s probably enough at this stage. So again, thank you very much for graciously accepting the invite to be on this fledgling podcast. And, yeah, wish you all the best and maybe our paths will cross again another time.

Simon: 58:19

Yeah, thank you for the opportunity. It’s been great. Thank you, yeah, it’s been good to talk about stuff.

Beyond Management: Why Culture Flows Downhill, with Lynne Peyton

Leadership is about creating confident practitioners who change lives

Leadership in social care isn’t just about managing teams—it’s about creating environments where practitioners can thrive and ultimately deliver better outcomes for vulnerable children and families. This profound insight emerged repeatedly during my fascinating conversation with Lynne Peyton, a former senior manager in health and social services who now runs her own leadership consultancy focused on transforming organisations from the top down.

Lynne’s journey into social work wasn’t planned. Originally intending to become a language teacher with dreams of working in Paris, her path changed dramatically after working at a holiday camp in England where she encountered people experiencing homelessness, those recently released from juvenile detention, and individuals struggling with various challenges. This exposure to life’s harsh realities sparked her curiosity about human stories and redirected her career trajectory. “I’ve just been fascinated by people’s stories ever since,” she explained, “and I have loved being a social worker.”

Perhaps most compelling was Lynne’s experience managing services throughout North and West Belfast during Northern Ireland’s political unrest. She described navigating extraordinarily challenging conditions where staff safety was constantly at risk, community tensions were high, and children’s wellbeing hung in the balance. Yet even in these circumstances, Lynne witnessed exceptional commitment from her teams who prioritised good practice despite the dangers. This period taught her valuable lessons about leadership under pressure and the importance of community partnerships in delivering effective services.

The core of our discussion focused on Lynne’s leadership model aptly named CORE, representing Communication, Optimisation, Relationships, and Evaluation. For communication, she emphasised that listening skills trump talking every time. “The most important bit about communication is listening, and to be a great listener, you have to be a great question asker,” she noted. Optimisation involves making the most of financial resources, but crucially also optimising staff potential and one’s own mindset as a leader. Relationships form the foundation of effective leadership across all stakeholders, while evaluation ensures accountability through measuring outcomes and constantly refining approaches.

One particularly striking observation was Lynne’s perspective on work-life balance. Rather than seeking perfect equilibrium, which rarely exists, she advocates for “life-work integration” that acknowledges the natural ebbs and flows of both personal and professional demands. Sometimes work must take priority; other times, family needs demand full attention. The key is flexibility and integration rather than rigid compartmentalisation.

Another valuable insight concerned the limitations of internal leadership development programs. While many organisations implement such initiatives, Lynne pointed out that middle managers can’t effectively coach senior leaders. Her independent perspective, backed by decades of experience, allows her to work with executives in ways that internal staff simply cannot. This external vantage point creates space for honest reflection and growth at the highest organisational levels.

Perhaps most powerfully, Lynne articulated the connection between empowered staff and empowered clients. “If we empower staff to be more confident in their practice, they’re willing to do more to empower families.” This ripple effect demonstrates why leadership development isn’t merely an organisational nicety but a direct contributor to better outcomes for vulnerable children and families. When practitioners feel confident and supported, they’re better equipped to support those they serve.

You can listen to Lynne here:

You can watch here:

About Lynne

Born and educated in Belfast Northern Ireland, Lynne’s spirit for adventure was fostered in the Officers’ Training Corps where she participated in a wide range of adventure training and leadership activities, including a transfer to the Virginia National Guard during a temporary social work position in a family crisis centre in Richmond in 1980. She also gained her Private Pilot license during that time.

A qualified Social Worker, Lynne is a former senior manager in Health and Social Services, having held both operational and strategic management responsibilities for mental health and services for children and families. She was the director of a not-for-profit children’s charity for a number of years. She is also a master practitioner in NLP and neuro strategies, which she believes are essential to building rapport and great communication.

Since establishing her consultancy almost 20 years ago, Lynne has been passionate about helping organisations working with vulnerable children to get better results. Her CORE Leadership Programme (Communication, Optimisation; Relationships, Evaluation) simultaneously targets executive teams as well as managers at all levels in organisations to bring about changes in attitude, culture, confidence, performance and outcomes.

In the words of one CEO, ‘Lynne has an amazing ability tounlock individual potential and bring out the best in people and inorganisations’.

Related Podcast Interviews:

Simon Benjamin

Listen here:

Watch here:

Andrew Isaac

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Transcript:

Colby: 0:00

Welcome to the Secure Start podcast.

Lynne: 0:02

And I have loved being a social worker. I manage services all over North and West Belfast, which was a real political hotspot at that time. There’s no such thing as life-work balance. There’s days when you have to be just working all the time and then somebody gets sick and your family demands your attention. What we have to do is life work integration. I like a whole agency approach, because culture flows downhill and very often programs workforce development programs are run by middle managers. Middle managers can’t coach and empower and work with and be the confidant for more senior managers. So what I bring is the independence and the years and years of not just experience but expertise in working with senior people. And one of the things I found out recently Colby, just because I’ve been probing it a wee bit more not everybody has somebody like that in their corner and I think it’s critical that we do.

Colby: 1:08

Hi, welcome to the Secure Start podcast. I’m Colby Pearce, and joining me for this episode is an experienced leader and consultant in the social care sector. Before I introduce my guests, I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands I’m coming from the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains, and the continuing connection that the Kaurna people feel, and all Aboriginal people feel, to land, waters, culture and community. I’d also like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging. My guest this episode is Lynne Peyton.

Colby: 1:50

Lynne is a former senior manager in health and social services, having held both operational and strategic management responsibilities for mental health and services for children and families during the 1970s to 1990s, a time of political unrest in Northern Ireland’s history. Since establishing her business consultancy almost 20 years ago, Lynne has had major successes in helping organisations and senior managers to get better results. Her core leadership program simultaneously targets the top team as well as managers at all levels in organizations to bring about changes in attitude, culture, confidence, performance and outcomes. In the words of one CEO, Lynn has an amazing ability to unlock individual potential and bring out the best in people and in organisations. For more than 30 years, she and her husband have invested in property, initially throughout the UK, then expanding to commercial properties in the USA and more recently in Australia. Nowadays, business has to be integrated with spending time with their three sons and their families in Perth, Australia, Charlotte, North Carolina and Cork, Ireland. Fortunately, they love travelling and growing as part of JT Fox’s Global Entrepreneurs Network. Welcome Lynne.

Lynne: 3:23

Hello Colby, it is so good to see you again.

Colby: 3:27

And you and a little bit about that. In a moment I wanted to just bring up how we met. But was there anything that you thought needed to be added to that little summary of you? There’s probably loads, I guess.

Lynne: 3:41

Oh, my goodness, my goodness. It’s like I’m always trying to think, Colby, what’s going to be the next chapter? So maybe the next time we talk there’ll be something else.

Colby: 3:53

Okay, no worries, and I was. I’m pleased to have you on the podcast because we’ve known each other for a number of years and I think it’s only been my first podcast interviewee who was a practitioner from here in Adelaide, where I am, who I’ve known. So all my other podcasts I’ve been kind of meeting people for the first time, but we met in 2015 in Castle Blaney.

Lynne: 4:26

In.

Colby: 4:26

Castle Blaney I remember it well. Yeah, and just yeah, we were. I was there just talking about my therapeutic model of care and I remember you arriving and I remember we had a person, a foster carer, with lived experience of the rollout of the program I think that might have been in 2016, actually, who you found very impressive at the time?

Lynne: 5:00

And, of course, just to add to that, I was there for an entirely different reason, but I am so curious about everything I’m thinking who is this guy? Came from Australia. What’s he got to say? So I popped in and I was blown away by your insights into how best to work, not just with traumatized children, but how to enable and empower the people who work with them, and so often we think of that in terms of the social worker and the psychologist. But really, what really intrigued me was your hands on advice for the hands on people, and that foster carer, as you say, lived experience of the difference the techniques that you had taught were making in the life for her and for that child who was so insecure and I remember at the time it was attachment to food, it was clinging behaviour to her, and you had helped her to see that’s just what he needs in this moment. You know, colby, I still have goosebumps thinking about that, because that was such a powerful intervention between you and that foster carer.

Colby: 6:20

Yeah, well, thank you, you’re very kind and you’d probably be pleased to know that they’re still rolling out my program in the Toosler fostering service in Donegal. They’re not as the primary therapeutic model of care. I think for the last year or so They’ve gone back to. They’ve had a change in management and it’s gone back to circle of security um. So for a long time I had a very strong support, uh, there in with the um. Now, what was her? What was the position that they called her just my social worker the principal, social worker the principal social worker yeah.

Lynne: 7:03

Yeah, there’s been many, many changes because they’re restructuring again. I would just say that we can all learn from different models. The important thing is that we constantly ensure that our practice is influenced by tried and tested models by tried and tested models, and I think it’s so important that you are persistent, because we know that model works. So you know, people change, but we have to just keep trying to encourage them to do more of what works, and we’ll talk about it later. But one of the elements of the core program is evaluating, constantly evaluating. The elements of the core program is evaluating, constantly evaluating the impact of everything we do and doing more of what works, and sometimes, with changes in leadership and changes in ideas, we experiment again instead of staying grounded in the things that work well.

Colby: 8:03

I do hope, um, that it still continues to be rolled out and I’m really looking forward to being able to return to Ireland sooner rather than later. It’s been a lot. I haven’t been back since 2018 with you know, the advent of world events in the intervening period. But, yeah, hopefully, fingers crossed, we’ll be back there again in the next year or two. But look enough about me and what I’m. You know what I’m doing or not doing at the moment. I really wanted to just start off by asking you what led you into this career, supporting leaders and teams to deliver best outcomes for their clients, including in the social care sector, and who and what perhaps were your major influences in that?

Lynne: 8:55

I’m going to start a wee bit further back, because I never wanted to be a social worker. I always loved style and glamour and I wanted to be a French and German language teacher and I could see myself in Paris as an assistant. But my first job away from home was in a holiday camp in England and there were people in the kitchen who worked, who always had to get a job that had accommodation with it and of course the summer season was easy. But then they didn’t often know where they were going to go next and I thought, oh my goodness, how does anybody live with that level of insecurity about not having a home? And then there were people who were just out of Borstal, which was the juvenile offenders centre, were just out of Borstal, which was the juvenile offenders centre, and there were people who were on the game and in the early days it was alcohol was the issue, because drugs weren’t really an issue at that stage, and I thought I have had such a sheltered life, there’s a whole world out of here that I know nothing about and it’s so interesting. So it was really back down to that curiosity. So I got the boat back from England because nobody flew in those days and I changed my course from languages to social science and psychology, and the rest is history. I’ve just been fascinated by people’s stories ever since and I have loved being a social worker and progress, progressing through all of the levels, um to the point where um in, I think, one of my most exciting jobs. Although I loved working in Belfast and running services, sometimes in very difficult times, I really enjoyed the strategic management role where you were focused on working with all sorts of partner agencies to better understand needs, to look at where services currently were and to see which ones were having the greatest impact so that we could map those and then look and see where were the gaps and how could we fill that gaps. And from my days working in Belfast I knew we could only fill those gaps in partnership with local communities. And, interesting, the organisation in the Republic of Ireland that I do most work with is now reshaping towards an integrated care model where it’s small, localized teams that do sort of from front door right through to children in care and work more closely with families and communities. So in 40 years it’s gone back to where I started.

Lynne: 11:41

The leadership bit came about because there were several reasons why I felt I wanted to start my own consultancy in 2001. And I’ll talk about the influences for that later. But I did a lot of work at that time, chairing multi-agency reviews when things had gone horribly wrong. Either children died or were very, very badly injured, and the goal was for all of the involved agencies to get the learning from that.

Lynne: 12:16

I got frustrated because in every single review I was going and we need to strengthen the environment within which people are doing their job Because staff retention was an issue that put more pressure on the people left behind. Balls got dropped but people forgot that when they were writing about what went wrong. So for years and years and years I tried to encourage that strengthening of leadership, empowerment, staff well-being and I kind of felt, while it did get some attention, it was always the things at the front door they wanted to fix first and the practice issues and the interagency issues. So I just decided well, I’ll write my own leadership program and I’ve been delivering that for many, many years in all kinds of contexts. And the beauty of it is I make it bespoke to whatever organization or team I’m working with at that particular time.

Colby: 13:16

Yeah, wow, and it’s been quite the career really, hasn’t it? I remember part of your response there. You mentioned managing services during some very particular, very particularly difficult times in in Northern Ireland, and am I right in thinking that that you? I once heard you talk about managing a residential care home on that. That was on the Falls Road.

Lynne: 13:44

Oh, I managed services all over northern West Belfast, which was a real political hotspot at that time.

Lynne: 13:54

I mean, it was such a challenging time because kids were taking and driving away cars it was something called joyriding at the time and there would be you know, there would be dreadful accidents, and so the IRA tried to control that with a process called kneecapping. And of course the kids that we were most worried about were inevitably the kids that were tied up with all the antisocial behavior, and kids would turn up by appointment sometimes and they would give them their Valium and tell them what to tell the hospital. So it was dreadful, and there were times when we had to negotiate for the safety and well-being of some of the kids in care or children in the community that we were worried about. So there were areas we couldn’t go into some days. And then you add to that all the other problems of the Friday night money lenders and the you know some of the kind of other influences. So it was a tough time. What was amazing was the staff were just incredible. What was amazing was the staff were just incredible. We prioritised safety.

Lynne: 15:09

We were sensible about what we did and how we did it, and we made a commitment to uphold good practice, to uphold good behaviours, to respect everybody we were dealing with. But we got real creative sometimes, colby, about how we got things done. So it was interesting times and I would still pay tribute to the amazing staff who worked through those incredibly challenging conditions.

Colby: 15:38

And I think the reason why I bring it up is because those kinds of adversities really do have the potential to bring out the very best in people and to bring out the creative solutions that are part of people’s growth and again, working with communities was absolutely essential and we were fortunate because every time a government minister went walkabout we had a dose of proposals ready to pitch to him and we did get.

Lynne: 16:15

We did get lots of funding to try creative things. We also got funding which brought communities together across the divide and led a legacy for some brilliant work that continues today. We also did some in the next role, in the strategic development role. We did a lot of great cross-border work and again we were creative about pitching for European peace funds, which allowed us to partner with organizations in Denmark and Italy, because their family, their, their policies were, I think, much more family friendly than ours. So it exposed us to learning about how people did it in different cultures and countries.

Colby: 17:03

Yeah, yeah, fantastic. And were there particular people or particular theories or ways of working that were influential in your development through your career?

Lynne: 17:18

I think it’s so important that we remind supervisors, and especially your first ever supervisor, just how important they are, and I look back with fondness and still thankfulness and gratitude. I had the most amazing early team leaders and supervisors, and it was for one of them it was her that knowledge was everything that you had to know, whether it was the benefits that somebody was entitled to or the nature of their condition. You had to research and have the knowledge that equipped you to work with people. And then I had another team leader who his calm, quiet way of getting everything done was so inspiring, and someone else who, no matter how frustrated you were, she had this capacity to bring it down a level and always ask great questions, and one of those is well, ok, so what should we do? You know, it’s the simple question isn’t it that sort of cut through the drama and the crisis? So I think early influencers are so, so important.

Lynne: 18:37

And then and then I had some people I worked with that I wasn’t so aligned with and that could be very uncomfortable, and I’m quite outspoken, so I would say what I feel. And then that didn’t always work so well, and I’m fascinated these days with people like Gabe Karp, who talks about conflict resolution, and I’m saying that conflict is inevitable. If you have good, strong minded people with good ideas, the chances of them butting heads is really quite good, and that’s back to what you were talking about earlier. Somebody thinks a different model may be more relevant than Sure Start, secure Start, so that’s good and it’s healthy. What we have to do, then, is learn to have healthy conversations about it, and I wasn’t sure, um, at some of those times.

Colby: 19:35

I was mature enough to have those healthy conversations, and I think I’ve got a lot better at it over the last maybe 20 years yeah, and I think it highlights that, um, we’re we’re always continuously developing, we’re continuously growing, and it doesn’t really serve too much of a purpose to reflect back and think, oh, I wish I knew this or that at that point in time. And when you were talking about your first supervisor, it put me in mind of my own first supervisors. And the first one particularly shout out to Professor Tracy Wade if she’s listening, and I think what they instilled in me so first Tracy, and thereafter fellow by the name of Ken Kobayashi was confidence. They had confidence in me until I had confidence in myself and I thought, you know, and I think that was, it’s been a tremendous legacy from them, as it sounds like yours have been as well.

Lynne: 20:45

And that’s the number one benefit that people feed back to me for the core leadership program, that it has helped them immensely with improving their confidence. And, as you and I know, confidence comes because we’re more competent. So you know, we need the skills and the knowledge and the experience in order to be competent skills and the knowledge and the experience in order to be competent. But it also comes from the ability to risk, assess and make decisions. So the choices we make and the impact of that helps improve our confidence as well. So I think confidence and competence go so well together and I totally agree with you. You we must never stop growing and developing and learning. And what my influencers for the leadership part were, I did my first fire walk um at the unleash the power within event with Tony Robbins in Geneva, I think in 1999.

Lynne: 21:50

It was either 1999 or 2000. Everybody still talks about it because there were so many people in the room and Tony has people jump up and down with excitement and the engineers structural engineers told us we had to stop jumping or the ceiling was going to come down into the room below. So we used to do the jumping in a mexican wave across the room. But because he still wanted to keep the thing. But the thing that that tony always, that he taught so many wonderful things that the one that is really relevant, I think, is the six human needs, and the four essential housekeeping needs are certainty, and we talked about that earlier.

Lynne: 22:32

People need a basic level of certainty and security in order to, in order to, thrive. So, um, certainty, uncertainty. We need a bit of variety. That’s why, when people stay in the same job for 30 years without growing and learning and developing, you know they get tired and switch off and become dissatisfied, and that can dissatisfy the rest of the team, because we all either affect or affect the people that or infect the people that we work with. And then he talks about love and connection, and that’s so, so important as well. So, the human needs, but he also talks in about that’s not enough, because the spiritual needs are for growth and contribution, and that’s why you know, you and I and others like us, we get so much back from the work we do, because we feel we’re making a contribution and then because how we contribute has to change over context and time. That’s where the growth element comes in as well. We have to stay relevant, colby.

Colby: 23:43

Well, that’s part of the reason why I’m developing, I’ve been doing these podcasts, because I get to talk to all these leaders in the field who, and I, um, learn and and and I I reflect. I think it. One of the big things I think is that we should never stop thinking about what we’re doing, and and the podcast gives me that opportunity to hear and understand and reflect on and integrate what I’m hearing in my own work. And, lynn, you’ve mentioned a number of times, you’ve referred to core, which is your leadership model. I wonder if you might just share a little bit more information about it.

Lynne: 24:27

I’m still so passionate about it, colby, because it works. So what I thought was what are the core elements of leadership? And when you think about it, they really come down to the C’s for communication. As leaders, we have to be effective communicators. Now, that doesn’t mean about talking. It’s good that when we talk, that we can you know doesn’t mean about talking. It’s good that when we talk, that we can you know, we can convey what we want people to hear. But the most important bit about communication is listening and to be a great listener. You have to be a great question, asker. So it’s all about learning the art of being present when you’re talking to someone else, really listening to what it is that they’re saying, what are the issues, why are they upset, why are they taking this position? And that’s why I think curiosity comes into it as well. But I could only have one C. If I could have had a second, it would have been curiosity. So it’s been effective communicator. And then I think that’s everything that’s involved in communications it’s using your facial expressions, your body language, not just your words. And one of the things I say to people nowadays is, when you’re on a Zoom call, you have to remember there’s no hiding place. It’s not like the long end of a table where you can roll your eyes. It’s something the boss said. When you’re on the Zoom screen, everybody can see that eye roll. So you have to look and you have to continue to be interested and you have to continue to be present when you’re on Zoom calls. So communication is critical.

Lynne: 26:00

The O is for optimisation. Whenever people talk about resources, they always talk about budgets and staff, and we’ve got to definitely optimise those. So that means that you have to have good financial scrutiny so that you minimise waste. You’ve got to be creative with your budgets as well. You don’t want money sitting there doing nothing, so you have to make sure it’s invested. And the other thing we have to optimize is our staff, but also it starts with us. So, as leaders, you have to optimize your mindset. You have to convey that sense of confidence and self-belief and belief in the people that you’re working with, but also belief in the plan and belief in the potential outcomes. So, and we’ve got to optimize our time. The potential outcomes so, and we’ve got to optimize our time.

Lynne: 26:51

If there’s one thing I teach over and over and over again, it’s time management and energy management. So some people might put in their time, but if you don’t bring the energy and the enthusiasm, you’re not optimizing who you are. So I see, be yourself, be the best version of yourself and optimize everything that is you and time management for everybody listening. The number one thing you can do to improve your time management is do a stop doing list what are all the things you’re currently doing that are just a waste of time and stop doing the hours for relationships. It’s like you and I just talked about. You said the reason for the podcast is to meet and learn from other people who have expertise in certain areas.

Lynne: 27:40

Relationships are fundamental to leadership, whether it’s the relationships with our top team, if we’re a senior manager, the relationships with all the organisations that are essential to us doing business, the relationships within our family, because we want to make sure we get that life work integration. There’s no such thing as life work balance. There’s days when you have to be just working all the time and then somebody gets sick and your family demand your attention. What we have to do is life work integration. So once a project’s due in, ok, we might have to work extra hours to get it done, or if a client needs us or a child is not safe, and then we have to learn to take the time out to rest, recuperate, whatever later on. So optimising our time is so important, but the relationships in there are what restore us and keep us going, and that includes the debriefing when people come back from what has been a difficult situation. So relationships have to be worked at all the time and the E is for evaluation. We have to measure everything we do.

Lynne: 28:49

I was coaching somebody for a senior position yesterday and I was going. Evidence means that you provide the data. When I started it was this. When I finished, it was this and the change was down to me because. So you’ve got to be able to evaluate, but at its most basic it’s evaluating what you’re doing that works and do more of it, and what is it that you’re doing that’s having no impact, and seriously question why you’re still doing it. So, in a nutshell, the value of it is, I like a whole agency approach, because culture flows downhill. So there’s no point in me fixing, empowering, sorting the kind of words that sometimes get used frontline managers if the culture doesn’t change and the culture starts with the CEO and the top team and one of my joys at the moment is coaching CEOs and not-for-profit organisations.

Colby: 29:48

I’m really, really enjoying the impact that that’s having on the organizations yeah, it’s a consistent um message really that that any change process, any endeavor, um therapeutic model, implementation or other, really starts at the top. I must admit, I’ve always been a bit of a supporter of the bottom-up approach as well, probably because largely in many of my endeavours I’ve never had the interaction with and support from the very top, the interaction with and support from the very top. But you know, I try to influence practice through things like this podcast, through YouTube videos, through my writing, through books, that kind of embryonic development of people’s knowledge and capacity.

Lynne: 30:53

And your books are really influential because they’re like a toolkit, and I think that’s what people need. They need something that is grinded in theory but gives them the tools and the resources.

Colby: 31:07

Yeah, a lot of contributions in this space are very much focused on what you need to know. I guess I’ve always tried to ensure that I’ve got plenty of information in there about what you need to do when you do it, and you’ve always been incredibly generous on your website as well Over the years.

Colby: 31:27

I’ve always told people to go to your website because there’s lots of free stuff on there that are are brilliant tools and assessment kits and things, so thank you for the contribution you’ve made with as regards to those tools over all these years yeah, well, thank you again, and I think I’m going a bit red, but the important thing is that there are good outcomes for children and young people, and I was speaking to a very interesting guest a little while ago a week or so ago about human capital, and we were talking about what is lost when we don’t intervene successfully with our young people. Intergenerational trauma persists. If we are able to turn a life around, we’re turning a life around for that person, but also their children and grandchildren, potentially. So, yeah, so, but it’s not all plain sailing trying to roll this stuff out, and I do wonder, even with rolling out a leadership model, are there any particular challenges that that you’ve you’ve faced in doing that and, if so, how have you overcome them?

Lynne: 32:52

you’ve faced in doing that? And, if so, how have you overcome them? Oh, the usual ones we’ve no money um, we’ve got our own um. So you just have to help people work through that. So if people are saying we haven’t got a budget right now, I I very often say, well, let me do a taster session so you can see what the benefits would be. And it’s also good to ask them well, if you had money, what would be your priorities?

Lynne: 33:16

And I think another thing is how many social workers did you lose last year? Because the fallout it’s like you, it’s like you know, it’s like a funnel where the policy is to create even more jobs but they’re still dripping out the bottom and the attrition rate can be really quite significant. It is around looking at well, how many more social workers can you afford to lose? Or, as one person told me recently, nobody will take the senior positions because it’s just not worth it. So how are you going to run the service without senior people? I can help you to empower your senior people so that they are more effective. So staff feel valued, so they they stay. And, of course, happy staff, confident staff, are much better practitioners. So everybody, everything that I do and everything you do. The end result is so that young people and their families get a better service. But empowered, confident staff, competent staff, always provide a better service than people who are exhausted or overwhelmed or not sure they want to be here anymore. So that’s one. The other one is well, we’ve got our own leadership program and I go. That’s great and I’m so glad that so many organizations are focusing on that. The challenge is that they don’t have anything like the level of experience I have, and very often programs workforce development programs are run by middle managers. Middle managers can’t coach and empower and work with and be the confident for more senior managers. So what I bring is the independence and the years and years of not just experience but expertise in working with with senior people, and so I think that’s it. You have to keep at it, because people will take the path of least resistance and it is important that you and I people like us keep actually ensuring that we do so. And the other thing I do, like you, the podcast.

Lynne: 35:42

I’ve just finished 50 episodes of Success is Never Accidental. Episodes of success is never accidental, and I’ve interviewed not just people from our sector, but people from all over the globe and from all different sectors. And the theme has been what is it that has made you successful? What have you learned about being successful? What would you pass on to other people? What happened when you hit a bump in the road? Other people, what happened when you hit a bump in the road? How much is mindset an issue? What would you tell your younger self? And it’s amazing, because there’s a formula for success and there are themes.Lynne: 36:18

Now everybody might do it their own way, but you’re not going to get there if you don’t work hard, if you’re not persistent, if you’re not passionate, if you’re not clear about why you’re doing what you’re doing. In other words, like Simon Sinek, if you’re not living your purpose. And so often the work I do actually helps people see that they’re a square peg in a round hole, and if we can get them into something that’s more aligned with their values and their passion, they do so much better. And that’s a really important thing about leadership.

Lynne: 36:52

Not everybody who takes a leadership job is equipped to be a great leader. A lot of leadership skills can be learned In fact, most of them and if you’re not naturally a good communicator and if you aren’t naturally passionate about the role that you have. It’s not going to work. So sometimes it’s helping people pivot and, you know, move out of leadership roles into maybe a more specialist practitioner role. But it’s so important that we’re in the right roles for us because happiness of work is essential yeah you, there’s so much in that there, lynn.

Colby: 37:39

Um, the first thing I want to pick up is, um, the real importance of what you said about you know coming people being aware of, of the work that they can do that is consistent with their, their own values, and because values burn out or values fatigue it goes by different names now but it is the experience of working in a, in an endeavor that runs counter to or is not consistent with your values.

Colby: 38:17

And child protection is a really obvious area for that clash to occur, because most people who get involved in child protection get involved because they want to help families, they want to help children, they want to help families. But particularly here in the jurisdiction I live in, child safety is the paramount consideration, and so, rather than necessarily being a place to support and help families, our child protection authorities intervene to ensure the safety of our children. And look, there’s arguments both sides of the ledger on whether it should be safety or best interests is a paramount consideration, but, in any event, what we end up with is if we have too many people in our workforce who are there to help families that’s what’s consistent with their values then child protection is really not necessarily, or at least as it is in this jurisdiction, is not really going to be their best place to work, I think.

Lynne: 39:35

And that’s particularly the case when older children are in very high risk circumstances and I think sometimes we have to ask if we remove them from home, what have we got for them that is actually any safer or better? And often that answer is very nebulous well, I think I don’t know that.

Colby: 39:59

The question is often asked very much. So the, the, the the role of the agency is to intervene to ensure safety. What comes after that is a secondary consideration, but I guess what you’re referring to is that a child’s journey through care can be quite a vexed one, and it is something that we need to keep, I think, in the forefront of our thinking at all times, because I often say the most healing relationship for our children is the repair of the one with their birth family, birth parents in particular. That’s the most healing relationship.

Lynne: 40:47

I think that is so true and that’s why one of the things I work on constantly is empowerment is empowerment, because if we empower staff to be more confident in their practice, they’re willing to do more to empower families to get better at their parenting or, you know, or their family relationships. So empowerment really, really is the key, and I think that all starts with leadership. So you have your toolkit in your books, my toolkit. I haven’t written the book yet, to my shame. I should have had it written long ago. But on my website just lynnpaytoncom there is a thing called the Leadership Library, which is absolutely packed with toolkits for leaders on anything that is likely to come up. And people will say to me years later, I still do that perceptual positions exercise, or I’m still using the seven steps to change, or oh, do you remember the day you told me about the single issue meeting? Well, that changed my entire practice. So there’s lots and lots of stuff on there that will help, because for leadership, we need a toolkit as well.

Lynne: 42:11

I’ll briefly tell you about the single issue meeting. How many times have you been in a supervision session? And as the supervisor? There’s this one thing that you need to raise, and what happens when you do all your case management reviews and you get to the end and you think I’ll bring that up next time and what happens is that the elephant in the room just gets carried forward. Elephant in the room just gets carried forward. So I say you never deal with those things in supervision. You have a single issue meeting. You have it in a territory that is private but that you control, so you can leave when you’re done saying, as the supervisor or the leader, what you need to say, and you make it really, really short and you, you practice it because how you communicate, it is very important. Gabe Karp talks about doing it in your shopping list voice, so that there’s no emotion attached to it, and then you give the person a minute or two to respond or you can just say to them so have a think about that and we can talk about it again. But you do the thing that needs to be said. You set it up to say it will. You control the environment as the supervisor and it’s short. The meeting is short but sweet, and then you can pick it up again later. But you plant the seeds. You say what needs to be said, you don’t leave it to supervision.

Lynne: 43:39

And then I think the other thing is perceptual positions. It’s a beautiful exercise where you rant for a minute as you and then you completely shake it, shake it all off and you become the other person. So you, I always say, stand like they would stand, and they might say, well, they would sit. Okay, well, then sit and breathe like they would breathe and now rant as that other person.

Lynne: 44:06

The insights that come out when people truly accept that the other person has, you know, a completely different view on the world. Sometimes that’s enough. Sometimes you need a higher authority. So I’ll say who’s the wisest person you know? And they might say their granny, or for some people it might be God, and I say, ok, so could they look down at these two people and please tell me what’s going on here? And then from that position, it’s amazing what comes out sometimes that has healed fractured relationships. It has helped people to stay in organizations that they didn’t think they would stay in, because, remember, most people leave because of the relationship with their immediate boss, when that relationship isn’t safe, when that relationship is fractured. I mean, I had somebody whose boss didn’t speak to them for six months. How do you supervise somebody that you’re not even speaking to. So perceptual positions can unlock a lot. So those kinds of tools are all on the website, and if anybody wants to know more, they can reach out to me by email as well.

Colby: 45:18

Well, that’s very generous of you too, lynne, and you said something about five minutes ago that gave me chills, and that was you said you were talking about. If a worker is empowered, then they have an improved capacity to empower their client. Yeah, we’re now, you know, in child protection, we’re wanting to be empowering, empowering and encouraging parents to, to really take the bull by the horn, so to speak. Yeah, and what was going through my mind is the disempowered worker. And how does the disempowered worker work with the disempowered?

Lynne: 46:08

Well, we know the answer to that, don’t we? Sadly?

Colby: 46:13

You’ve mentioned a number of times about leadership, mentoring, leadership, supervision. I mean, what would you say to senior leaders and managers about the importance of supervision?

Lynne: 46:27

Supervision is absolutely mandated in social work practice and it is a governance responsibility at all levels to ensure not just that it takes place but that good quality supervision takes place. So that does require I mean, everybody has a supervision policy, everybody audits supervision. But does anything change? I mean it just is such a necessary requirement. It has to be quality from the point of view of case management and generally that’s the area that it’s strongest in. But supervision is also about personal development plans. It’s about staff growth and hugely it’s important, about staff well-being.

Lynne: 47:20

You know only too well the vicarious trauma that’s experienced by staff in these fields. It’s got to include well-being. It’s got to include whether there is accumulated harm over time and over incidents and working with a particular family and it’s got to check in about just general well-being. Thankfully, most organisations are putting well-being on the agenda, but it’s our job as a supervisor to check in. Are you sleeping? You know you seem to be eating a lot of junk food. You know what is going on. You know how are the kids we’re all carrying? We’re all carrying multi-responsibilities. You might have a parent who’s elderly that you you’re looking after. You’ve got kids, um, and so many children nowadays in the families of the workers with with particular issues that need maybe some special attention. We have to. We have to treat and care for and look after the well-being of all of our staff and, as leaders, we’ve got to lead by example. I can’t ask somebody else if they’re eating properly, sleeping well, drinking water, if I’m not doing it myself.

Colby: 48:44

Yeah.

Lynne: 48:44

We have to model the behavior that we want to see, and it’s so critical in our world that people take care of themselves and we take care of others as leaders. But not just that, because you said about bottom up approaches earlier on Everybody on the team needs to take care of everybody else on the team. You need accountability bodies, you need all, and you need people to speak up, like if I think you’re looking a bit ragged, I need to be able to say, colby, what’s going on, you just look tired or whatever. And it’s our responsibility to take care of each other.

Colby: 49:22

And if we do, then people, we are providing a safe containing space for people to feel, allow themselves to be a little bit vulnerable and share that the work and life do have an impact on us and share that the work and life do have an impact on us and in doing so, being open to support or open to time away, whatever, we need to ensure that when we are at work and servicing the needs of our children and families, that we’re optimal, as you said earlier, that we’re at our best.

Lynne: 50:00

How do you find in group supervision, can you create that space there?

Colby: 50:05

People respond best. People are. In my experience, people are more likely to trust, are more likely to trust to participate, to open up, to reflect in circumstances where they feel like their experience is honoured, is known, is understood and is honoured.

Lynne: 50:31

Absolutely. I think that is so true. And when I do team building I actually did a bit recently in Australia at an academic institution and I always have the same model I ask people to introduce themselves and I ask them what gifts do they bring to the team? And inevitably, when people do that, they get feedback on it. But I ask them to stand up, tell me what their role is not their job description, but their role and why they’re in the work. What gifts do they bring the team? And then I ask them what do you need from your colleagues? And it’s amazing what comes out in that simple exercise. Again, it has to be well facilitated.

Lynne: 51:19

I find when people try to do it themselves, they get stuck in their own head about what they think should be going on, whereas as the facilitator, you and I have no investment other than to make this a great experience and for them all to get to know each other better. And I ask everybody in the room what did they learn about the person? Not what they heard. What did they learn? And that lets them to say they’ve got amazing energy or you could tell that they’re really committed. So all that other stuff. Now people just glow when their colleagues give them all that amazing feedback. It’s not rocket science, but team building needs to be managed by someone who’s good at team building. Group supervision needs to be managed by somebody who’s talented in providing that group supervision.

Colby: 52:19

Yeah, for me, I think it’s.

Colby: 52:21

I talk to people every day.

Colby: 52:23

You know I’m primarily a psychotherapist working with children and I think one of the things that you alluded to there is the benefit of looking beyond the behaviour and looking at what’s really going on and acknowledging what’s really going on for a person.

Colby: 52:49

I think the question is not so much what you observe about a person but what you’ve learnt about a person, which means you have to take an open and reflective stance, and one of my mantras, I think, in supervision is about it being an opportunity to stop and think about what you’re doing, think about the work that you’re doing, think about your clients, and it’s one of those core aspects of trauma-informed work and trauma-informed organizations that there is a focus on looking beyond the behavior and trying to decipher the meaning of that behavior.

Colby: 53:34

And something else that you said that resonates with me and is also very much aligned with an interview I did earlier with a gentleman by the name of Simon Benjamin and his podcast may come out before or after yours, but they’ll be adjacent to each other and he talked about leadership supervision uh, being important because it models it, but also because if it’s good quality supervision to leadership, then leadership will see the value in supervision and if they see the value in it, then they’re more likely to promulgate it and support it right down through the organization, which I thought was. Yeah, it was also very, very similar to what you were saying and I think, I think, um, we all need coaches.

Lynne: 54:30

So I still have three coaches and sometimes I pick up coaches. So, um, I had challenges, I had an organization with challenges, um, that needed mediation. So I actually got a wee bit of coaching on mediation just to refresh my skills, and I think that’s important. I would not dive into something that I thought, gosh, it’s a while since I’ve done that. I need to brush up.

Lynne: 55:01

But I have my Tony Robbins coach from it’s now going on 23 years. I have quarterly sessions with her. She’s a very dear friend. And I have another very dear friend who I met through Success Resources America, and she and I have an arrangement where we coach each other for an hour each month. Now it flows, but we do our updates and we identify our challenges in advance. That’s the other thing with all my coaching. It’s all. You must prepare for it. We have to agree the actions. You have to keep going or I won’t continue to coach you. So I do accountability coaching, but with her it’s amazing. For about seven years now we’ve had this monthly session.

Lynne: 55:49

Now, again, these are two people I could.

Lynne: 55:53

My life could depend on them.

Lynne: 55:54

I could, if I needed anything, would reach out and one of the things I found out recently Colby, just because I’ve been probing it a wee bit more not everybody has somebody like that in their corner and I think it’s critical that we do so.

Lynne: 56:11

Again, it would be an exhortation to everybody listening have you got somebody who, regardless of what it is, you can talk to them, you can be yourself, you can be vulnerable and they will? They will listen and not necessarily advise, but ask you the questions that allow you to work through it yourself and sometimes become shift from a coach to a mentor, where maybe their advice is the right thing to do. So I would encourage everybody to ensure that they have somebody in their corner and and I think the other thing is, I have a business coach, which is a very different approach to the approach from this, but I love I think everybody should run their organisation like a business, and I have other businesses outside of. This is my passion, this has been my life’s work, but I love business as well. So I’ve got a business coach and that’s entirely different kind of relationship than the relationship with my growth and leadership coaches, than the relationship with my growth and leadership coaches.

Colby: 57:21

There’s so much I could pick up on and talk more with you about. Lynn, thank you very much for your generosity and grace in accepting the invitation to appear on this fledgling podcast of mine. What I usually? You’ve kind of asked me a question already, but I’ll give you another go.

Colby: 57:45

I always because when I’m working with children, if I find myself having, for whatever reason, asked them a series of questions, I’ll always say to them well, that was a lot of questions For me, wasn’t it? How about you ask me a question? So it’s kind of like a return serve for them. And the most common question they ask me is how old I am, and I was answering in months I was. Then someone worked that out, so then I was answering in dog and cat years.

Colby: 58:17

I mean before that I always used to say what my grandmother said, which is I’m as old as my tongue and a little bit older than my teeth. That served me for about 20 years. But then it was months, then it was dog and cat years. But I heard a really good one yesterday which was from a client, and she told me how old she is in adult years. So adult years start when you’ve left your teenage years. So I don’t know if I’ll see how that goes. I’m not sure it’s. It’s very flattering, of course, because it’s uh, if I say how old I am in adult years, it’s much lower than my actual age, but anyway.

Lynne: 58:59

Age is literally just a thought. You know, I mean, you’re literally, I like the bit. You’re literally only as old as you feel. I was 72 last week and I feel about 50 and I have loads more to do, and a numerical age is not going to stop me. I did a zip line my first ever zip line when I was in Perth a couple of weeks ago, and I’ve got a new daughter in law now. So I said to her you need to think of an adventure for us to go on. And so here’s my question for you. You’ve done a number of these podcasts. Now what has been the biggest learning, colby, from the people that you’ve interviewed so far From the podcast process?

Colby: 59:50

From the process, I think the important. I would say that you can be in an area of endeavour where you are highly experienced and you always wish you know more than you know. And the longer you stay in an area of endeavour, you probably are more appreciative of what you don’t know. Um, but I think what, what, what has stood out for me is I’ve talked to people in a in in the related endeavor that I’m in, and I have learned and been stimulated in so many ways by each of the different perspectives when I’ve done that. So I think not only should we be speaking with our mentors, our supervisors and so on, but I think we should speak to a diverse range and number of people in our era of endeavour. And the other thing that I’ve learnt is that all the people that I’ve spoken to have been really keen to have a chat with me. So you know, people are to to speak and share ideas and um. So there is a, so don’t.

Colby: 1:01:25

I would encourage people to not be backwards in coming forwards and reaching out to people and um, and and making connections and communicating. I think and that’s and, of course, for me, the conversation is, you know, the foundation of all the work that I do and, a bit like what you were saying before, I’ve absolutely loved doing podcasts because of the conversation, because of the interaction. It’s really floated my boat, um, and you, yeah, you feel so, you feel so energized about in doing that. So there you go, there’s a. There’s a range of a range of things. I thought you were asking me initially what who said the most profound thing? And I didn’t. I think it’s a bit early for me to choose favourites just yet.

Lynne: 1:02:19

Oh, no, no, no. I just think we learn something. As you said, it’s so stimulating. We learn something from everybody and I think what it’s done for me, in addition to all the things you’ve said with which I concur it just gives you hope, even more hope. You know we’re hopeful people anyway, but you just realise there’s so many amazing people in the world doing amazing things and, as you say, who are generous with time and spirit and willing to share, and every single person I speak to I learn something profound from them, whether it’s their take on a particular thing or just their attitude to life or something that a challenge that they’ve overcome. It is such a privilege to both host a podcast and to be a guest on a podcast.

Colby: 1:03:10

Well, thank you for being a guest and perhaps this might, if you’re willing, will, the the first of perhaps a number, maybe backwards and forwards, because I have appeared on your podcast as well you have.

Lynne: 1:03:24

You were amazing. It got very good reviews and I continue to be a huge fan, colby, so keep up the good work thank you.

From Cotswold to Global Health: Creating Healing Systems

What Happens When We Invest in Human Potential?

The Cotswold Community stands as a pioneering example of therapeutic residential care for deeply troubled young people, showcasing how thoughtful, systemic approaches to trauma can transform lives across generations. In my conversation with Graeme Kerridge, who worked at the Cotswold Community in the late 1970s before developing a career in international health management, we explored the profound and lasting impact of this revolutionary approach to caring for emotionally damaged children.

The Cotswold Community was established under the leadership of Richard Balbirnie, who undertook the monumental task of transforming an old-style approved school (essentially a reformatory) into a therapeutic community. What made this transformation remarkable was Balbirnie’s commitment to working with existing staff and residents rather than starting from scratch. This change management process speaks volumes about how institutional change can occur even in the most challenging environments when guided by clear therapeutic principles and strong leadership.

At the heart of the Cotswold approach was a therapeutic model based on the work of Donald Winnicott and Barbara Dockar-Drysdale, focusing on creating an environment where severely damaged children could begin to heal. The community operated without locks, bars, or restraints—remarkable for working with young people who were often one step away from secure facilities. This open approach was coupled with careful assessment: could they help the boy? Could they contain him in an open setting? And importantly, was the boy so damaged that attempting to help would drain and destroy staff?

What particularly stands out about the Cotswold Community was its commitment to being a learning institution. Staff regularly participated in reading groups, analyzed their work, and openly discussed what was working and what wasn’t. Both Balbirnie and Dockar-Drysdale published annual “realizations papers” documenting their learnings and needed changes. This culture of reflection and growth extended to both staff and residents, creating parallel developmental journeys that reinforced the therapeutic environment.

Perhaps the most powerful testament to the Cotswold approach came through Graeme’s story of reconnecting with a former resident 39 years after leaving the community. This young man, who had stolen soft toys from a childcare center (revealing his profound emotional deprivation), had managed to break his family’s intergenerational cycle of dysfunction. Despite a rough start after leaving the community, he developed marketable skills, maintained a stable 20-year partnership, and had two sons attending university—an extraordinary outcome for someone from his background.

The systems approach that guided the Cotswold Community had far-reaching implications beyond residential care. Graeme applied these principles throughout his career in healthcare management and international health development, recognizing that effective intervention requires looking at the entire system rather than isolated components. Whether managing hospital quality or national disease programs, this holistic perspective proved invaluable.

The conversation raises important questions about Australia’s current approach to troubled young people. While residential care has evolved toward smaller community houses, we lack the equivalent of the comprehensive therapeutic communities like Cotswold or the Mulberry Bush schools that continue to operate in the UK. This represents a significant gap in our care landscape, especially for our most damaged young people who may not thrive in foster care or conventional residential settings.

The economic argument for therapeutic intervention is compelling. As Graeme noted from his international health experience, preventive programs show remarkable returns on investment—$42 back for every dollar spent on TB programs, for example. Similar calculations would likely show the tremendous cost-effectiveness of proper therapeutic care for troubled children compared to the long-term costs of incarceration, intergenerational trauma, and lost human potential.

You can listen here:

You can watch at the link below:

About Graeme

Graeme is an international health development consultant who has worked in over 25 countries throughout Africa, Asia and the Pacific, and in the countries of the former Soviet Union. He has particularly focused on assignments supporting grants from the Global Fund to fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria (GFATM). In addition to working as a consultant and technical team leader on assignments funded by USAID, AusAID (DFAT), GIZ and other donors, for several years he was a technical manager on a major USAID project based in Washington DC where he managed and oversaw multiple teams of consultants supporting Global Fund grants around the world.

Prior to his international development career, Graeme worked for 18 years in health care management in several states of Australia. He started his professional career, however, working for several years in the late 1970s at The Cotswold Community, an experimental therapeutic community for maladjusted children in Wiltshire, UK. While he did not continue working in that field after returning to Australia, he often reflects on his learnings from that period in pursuing a career in the management of caring organisations.

Related Podcast Interviews:

Tom Ellison

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John Whitwell

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Transcript:

Colby: 0:00

Welcome to the Secure Start podcast.

Graeme: 0:03

And so the systems approach that was adopted at the Cotswold community very much influenced the way that I took work into healthcare management, and the probation officer that I was shadowing on a voluntary basis said look, Graeme, if you want to understand how people get to be like this in prison and coming out often very institutionalised and struggling, then it would be worth my while learning about children.

Graeme: 0:47

I saw an advertisement for the Cotswold community and I applied and was invited to go and meet with them and, yeah, that was how I came to work at the Cotswolds. Richard and his team had a very, very strong commitment to the Cotswold community being a learning institution and, you know, with a preparedness to examine what was working, what was not working and talk about it very openly, without, you know, ego getting in the way at all. The community was seeking to, and bearing in mind that a lot of the work that Winnicott had done and that Barbara Dr Drysdale had done was looking at the damage that was done by removing children during the blitz yeah and so there was a very, very um strong belief that, look, you do not remove the child unless you know it is is really very, very serious.

Graeme: 2:04

And then you look at how to do it in a way that causes the least damage.

Colby: 2:10

Welcome to the Secure Start podcast. I’m Colby Pearce, and joining me for this episode is a highly experienced executive and consultant in international health development who, at the beginning of his professional career, worked in the Cotswold residential care community for deeply troubled young people. Before I introduce my guests, I’d just like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land I’m meeting on the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains and also the Jagera and Tirribul people, who are the traditional custodians of the lands that our guest is coming to us from, and I’d like to acknowledge the continuing connection that Aboriginal people feel to land, culture, community and pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging. My guest for this episode is Graeme Kerridge.

Colby: 3:11

Graeme is an international health development consultant who has worked in over 25 countries throughout Africa, asia and the Pacific and in the countries of the former Soviet Union. He is particularly focused on assignments supporting grants from the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, tuberculosis and Malaria. In addition to working as a consultant and technical team leader on assignments funded by USAID, ausaid and other donors, for several years he was a technical manager on a major USAID project based in Washington DC, where he managed and oversaw multiple teams of consultants supporting global fund grants around the world. Prior to his international development career, Graeme worked for 18 years in healthcare management in several states of Australia. He started his professional community, however, working for several years in the late 1970s at the Cotswold Community, an experimental therapeutic community for maladjusted children in Wiltshire, the United Kingdom. While he did not continue working in that field after returning to Australia, he often reflects on his learnings from that period in pursuing a career in the management of caring organisations. Welcome, graeme.

Graeme: 4:40

Well, it’s very good to meet you at last, Colby.

Colby: 4:44

Yes, it’s been. I should tell the little bit of the story if you don’t mind that you got in contact with me after episode two of the podcast. Yes, yeah, with John Whitwell, who was the principal of the Cotswold community for a fair amount of time. I’m not sure if he was the principal while you were there, but he was there.

Graeme: 5:11

He was the deputy principal while I was there.

Colby: 5:14

Yeah, yeah and yeah. You got in touch with me and you’d just been in Adelaide as it happened, and discovered that this was where I was.

Graeme: 5:26

Yes, yes, I had no idea that there was interest in this field in Australia. So I saw that John had done a podcast. I listened to it and I was astonished to hear that it was hosted by yourself, based in Adelaide.

Colby: 5:44

Yes, so yeah, as we were talking about before we started, it is a community that fascinates me because it is an example, I think, of a really good a program with really good outcomes for children in a in a therapeutic residential care setting. And you’re right, there’s not a lot of that here in australia. And um, I will mention, uh, another podcast, uh, guest, adela holmes. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of adela. She established the therapeutic model and was the initial director of a facility facility is a horrible way of putting it but a therapeutic residential care community in Victoria called Hurstbridge Farm, and so there is a little bit of that and it’s been quite successful and the podcast I recorded with her will probably have immediately preceded this one. If people are listening to this one and want to check that one out, to want to check that one out.

Graeme: 7:11

So, Graeme, tell me about how you first got involved in the Cotswold community. Well, it started off when I was at university. I studied economics as an undergraduate and during that time I became very interested in, I guess, what is known these days as human capital. That is how, and, more to the point, how we waste so much human capital in all sorts of ways, but particularly by, you know, the people that are incarcerated or the people who are in long-term institutions. And I’m not talking about wasting in a strictly economic sense of them not being in the workforce, but more in terms of them not leading full lives. You know it could be grandparents not being able to, you know, enjoy guiding their grandkids, that sort of thing. People just not being able to join the family in major gatherings at Christmastime and other times, all those sorts of ways where society and the lives of individuals are enriched. And while I was another graduate and thinking about all this, I saw a notice asking for volunteers at I think it was the Redfern Community Health Centre, because at that stage they were just dealing with an influx of people who were discharged from the long-term psychiatric hospitals which were in the process of emptying out as many as they could at that point. And I would go along and I became a volunteer with them, working with the staff to support weekly activities programs for the people who were newly out of the long-term institutions, and I found that a very interesting area.

Graeme: 9:22

When I finished my studies I travelled and went to, ended up in London and there I started exploring opportunities in the field of care and rehabilitation of people released from prisons and I volunteered with the London Probation Service, again with activity programs for men who had often been in prison for many, many years and had lost a lot of you know, social skills and daily living skills, and we would run a weekly activity center there and I would also shadow one of the probation officers as he would accompany some of the people along to court hearings, to meetings, to work out their next steps, to help them fill out forms.

Graeme: 10:27

And that was very interesting and the probation officer that I was shadowing on a voluntary basis said look, Graeme, if you want to understand how people get to be like this in prison and coming out often very institutionalised and struggling, then it would be worth my while learning about children. I saw an advertisement for the Cotswold community and I applied and was invited to go and meet with them. I applied and was invited to go and meet with them, and, yeah, that was how I came to work at the Cotswolds.

Colby: 11:14

So yeah, it’s interesting, isn’t it? You’re working with people who had served terms of imprisonment and had come out from it. But yeah, that sparked an interest or you were encouraged to follow an interest in how all of this came about. That’s right, and there was that recognition that people have kind of.

Colby: 11:40

I remember when I was training it was almost people could almost be a bit flippant about it all goes back to childhood. I think that reflects the particular time where I was doing my training, where the dominant I’m a trained clinical psychologist the dominant therapeutic approaches didn’t require an analysis of childhood experience and the enduring impacts that that has on life into adulthood. I’m a bit older and wiser now. In fact I’d never really fully embraced that, and you can see over here one of the books that I wrote about. I’ve written books about children and particularly have led a career with a strong focus and interest on child to adult relationships. Yeah, so you went back, I guess, went into the Cotswold community with an expectation of seeing where things go awry and perhaps how to change the course of history for young people.

Graeme: 12:57

Well, obviously that was my interest, but when I went to meet Richard Balbirnie, who was the principal there, and the senior staff to get to know them and to decide as to whether it was my thing, I must say you know, several things really made a big impression on me.

Graeme: 13:20

Firstly, the very clear therapeutic model that they had guided which was very much modelled on the work of Donald Winnicott and also coloured by Barbara Dockerdrysdale, who was the consultant psychotherapist for the Cotswold community, and so it was a very, very clear model that they were working to. Secondly and this actually became, I guess, over time, my particular interest I was struck by a very strong commitment to a systems approach for the way that they looked at care and the way that they looked at management of the care there. They worked very closely with the Tavistock Institute. They provided a consultancy, virtually a management consultancy for the community, and, as I can discuss later, I guess that was one of the things that really interested me, of the things that really interested me.

Graeme: 14:50

Thirdly, I picked up right at that initial meeting that Richard and his team had a very, very strong commitment to the Cotswold community being a learning institution and, you know, with a preparedness to examine what was working, what was not working and talk about it very openly without, you know, ego getting in the way at all. That was very impressive. You know, these were just the things I was picking up on at the initial meeting. And then I guess the fourth thing that really struck me during that initial meeting was the task that Richard was taking on, whereby he had been taking an old-style approved school, which you know all the dreadful things that everyone listening to this podcast will be very aware of, I’m sure.

Colby: 15:51

Reformatory in our parlance, I think in Australia yeah.

Graeme: 15:55

He was taking that and converting it into a therapeutic community and he wasn’t able to have the luxury of, uh, you know, clearing all the the uh, the boys from that approved school out and clearing all the staff that had been there out. He had to go through a process of working with what he had and then gradually, over a period of years, converting the whole style of that. And that type of change process was an extraordinary undertaking and so obviously you know that was very impressive.

Colby: 16:39

And at what point did you come into it? Because it would have been just. I remember when John speaking to John Whitwell about it, it would have been a massive undertaking. Yes, and as I recall the conversation with John, it started really from, obviously, I think it was 1969 that Richard Balburnie took it over. And at what point did you start there?

Graeme: 17:06

I started the very beginning of 77.

Colby: 17:10

Yeah.

Graeme: 17:11

So and I think John and Richard saw that look, the first five or four years or so, we’re really just slugging it out in terms of the change process and gradually, you know, moving on staff for whom it was not going to fit. Yeah, additionally, after a few years Richard moved on about half the boys that were in there as well.

Graeme: 17:46

Okay, because he recognised that, or there was a broad recognition that many of the boys there were, I guess, low-level delinquents and were not seriously disturbed boys that he wanted to really focus the community on and he recognised that, in fact, those boys that were essentially delinquents but not seriously disturbed, they actually deteriorated if they were in that type of environment you know of the institutional environment and it was much better for them to be out in the community and being kept an eye on at the community level by, you know, the local social services and the local police.

Colby: 18:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, and that and that, yeah, and that’s right and that’s what we do see that um, there is that kind of effect where um people, when you’re the environment in which you are in, can can either um can expose you to um influences that that may not be in your best interest, I guess going forwards and um, but I, I’m really also this is a little bit of a question without notice, because I’m really um, I’m turning my mind to the really the, the magnitude of that, that process of change that richard undertook to um my and and my observation would be from my own work over the last 30 years. It is very difficult, even motivated people of the need to vary their approach to caregiving and relating with our deeply hurt and troubled young people, let alone what I think John well, in my conversation with him, described as almost prison guards really, and with that being the role and perhaps that being the mentality of the way in which they approached the work.

Graeme: 20:19

Yeah, yeah.

Colby: 20:21

So, no question without notice there it was more just me thinking and reflecting on on that um. So you, these were, that was your kind of initial impressions. They were, they were really favorable, um, and how did that, those impressions play out, I guess, at over the time that you were at the Cotswold community, and what additional things perhaps did you notice about it that both made it work and or needed further work?

Graeme: 20:58

Yeah, well, look, I can say that the portrayal that Richard provided and that I absorbed in that very first day that I spent with him, that was very accurate. But obviously I developed a lot more insights as to you know, more insights as to you know the way in which the place sought to function over time. One of the really things that struck me very, very strongly was the very clear triaging system that Richard had set up there, guided by Barbara Dockerdrysdale, obviously, in that there was a very clear process of asking, you know, firstly, can we help this boy? Secondly, can we contain the boy? Because it was an open community.

Graeme: 22:18

There were no locks, you know, no bars, no closed rooms, no bars, no closed rooms, no restraints. That, unfortunately, is still quite common in youth detention facilities and so on. It was an open facility. So it was really a question can we contain the boy? And thirdly, is the boy so damaged that trying to help drain and destroy staff? Because working with very damaged children, as you would know, is probably challenging for the carer. So the community was seeking to, and bearing in mind that a lot of the work that Winnicott had done and that Barbara Dr Drysdale had done was looking at the damage that was done by removing children during the Blitz, yeah.

Graeme: 23:42

We have got some dreadful experience here in Australia but that was the basis of their work at looking at the danger, that was, the damage that was done.

Colby: 23:53

Yeah.

Graeme: 23:54

And so there was a very, very strong belief that, look, you do not remove the child from unless you know it is very, very serious, and then you look at how to do it in a way that causes the least damage.

Graeme: 24:13

So there was a very strong belief in not taking in those boys who, while they may be damaged, they’re not so damaged that they would not be best staying with their family, however inadequate that might be, being supported by the county social services and by the police and other authorities at working through that out of a residential situation, but also not taking in those who were just so damaged that they would not be reasonably treated, without draining all the resources of the team.

Colby: 25:09

Yeah.

Graeme: 25:10

So getting an understanding of that triaging approach was, you know well, I found that that was a very valuable lesson to apply, you know, right throughout my career actually.

Colby: 25:29

Yeah, yeah, it almost sounds like you know, being very aware of what resources you have, to achieve the best outcomes with those with whom you think you can deliver the best outcomes for.

Graeme: 25:51

Yep.

Colby: 25:51

Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, and go ahead.

Graeme: 26:01

There are many other things that were really major lessons as well were really major lessons as well. Really, you know, understanding how their commitment to it being a learning institution played out was really an important and valuable lesson, you know, in that we would have frequently reading groups whereby, you know, we all studied different papers that were put together. We would, as a group and I’m talking about a small house group analyse what was working, what was not working and how to address those and the possible reasons for that. Again, in a way that was very open and Barbara Drasdell and Richard both often brought out about every year, brought out annual realisations papers, their learnings from the year where they had observed things that possibly needed to be changed or things that they need to stop doing and things they need to start doing. Being in that learning environment was really quite extraordinary.

Colby: 27:37

It does sound extraordinary and what it has me thinking about is that it was a very that staff growth and development, you know, had an important place alongside the boys’ growth and development.

Graeme: 27:55

Very much so.

Colby: 27:56

Yes.Graeme: 

\27:58

And that was an important part of Barbara Dr Dresdell’s role.

Colby: 28:05

Aye.

Graeme: 28:06

Yeah, to guide staff as well.

Colby: 28:10

And it sounds like it was a reflective environment and from the point of view that and you referred to the annual insights paper but it sounds like it was an environment where people were encouraged to think about what they were doing not just approach the role, uh, in a very um, routine, ritualized um, I’m trying to think of a better word for automaton, but you know what I routine ritualised I’m trying to think of a better word for automaton, but you know what I mean but to actually approach the role with a healthy reflective capacity, which is very much one of the foundations for what we refer to generally now as trauma-informed practice, whereby you are encouraged to very much adopt a reflective stance, be aware of yourself, be aware of the person with whom you’re interacting, the young person with whom you’re interacting, and what is their experience that led up to this interaction in the here and now. And it sounds like that was very healthily encouraged and supported at the Cotswold community.

Graeme: 29:42

Very much so and, look, I must say that observing and working with Richard Balbirnie was an extraordinary experience. You know, richard was a very well courageous person in terms of what he was prepared to set up there and the changes that he was prepared to work through. He was very single-minded and with a very clear vision of what he wanted to do. I have heard him being referred to as a very charismatic person, but that was something that Richard really argued very much against, you know, because so many of the types of communities that were set up were often set up by a charismatic person and everyone followed the leader. But then, as soon as that person went or often before that person went, you know, the whole thing would crumble and what Richard was seeking to establish was something quite different from that. It was very much a decentralised organisation.

Colby: 31:12

Follow your instinct.

Graeme: 31:14

And not a hierarchical organisation at all. It wasn’t so much following your instinct. You were very much following very much the treatment and the care philosophies and so on. But it was very much that recognising that it must be the people who are the primary carers who are making decisions and that they be supported to do that. And certainly if they stumble then you pick them up and work through.

Colby: 31:53

But rather than looking for approval from on high from some charismatic leader, he was seeking to have a very, very different organisation, seeking to have a very, very different organisation and entrusting the people that worked in the organisation with that capacity to think and reflect and instinct was not the right word, I think I was more thinking, following your reflections, I guess, following your understandings, following your understandings, following your learnings and teachings again, an extension of thinking about what you’re doing, I think, sounds very much like that was very healthy there. Yeah, now my um, my understanding of the Cotswold community is that relationships were. The relationships that were cultivated with the young men were very influential and important, and I think part of us kind of connecting with each other was not just hearing the podcast and recognising John, but also you told me about an experience that you had of a resident at the Cotswold community who contacted you many or decades later.

Graeme: 33:33

Yeah. Yeah, yes that was quite extraordinary really, in that some 39 years after I had left and 39 years after I had left, I got a contact, through LinkedIn actually, from a chap who had been a resident and who had been one of the boys that I worked particularly with in that each of the house staff would have about four boys that they would work with.

Graeme: 34:20

Yeah, and this chap. I had started working with him when he came to the community at about age 13. He had been a young thug in his local area and was in a lot of trouble with the law, and this was well. For any of the boys coming to the community, it was really the last stop before going into closed institutions, before going into closed institutions, and I worked with him for several years while I was there and just to give you an idea of the sorts of damaged kids, we used to work in terms of about eight weeks and then the boys would go home for about eight to ten days to keep in touch with their family, because that was considered very important, even if their families were often, you know, fairly dysfunctional.

Graeme: 35:54

And often, unfortunately, you know, they did break down a bit and get into trouble. And so I went along. This chap had got into trouble one break home and I went along to the court hearing with him and what he’d done? He’d broken into a childcare centre near where he’d been and stolen soft toys and this is a 13-, 14-year-old thug and so that shouted out the sort of severely emotionally deprived boys, boys that we were working with who had really had a very inadequate you know, early life that they were still trying to come to terms with.

Graeme: 37:14

And so you know that was the sort of chat that this boy was. And anyway, he made some progress while I was there, but obviously, once I left the community and came back to Australia I didn’t have any contact with them. And it was quite extraordinary receiving this, this letter. He initially just sought to make sure that that he got the right and then said he would write a longer note. You know when he could, and it took about another year before he actually did, but when he did it he had lived an extraordinary life, you know.

Graeme: 38:00

He explained how, when he left the community community he actually absconded from the community and he then sought to return but it was decided that no, look, it was best that he just leave at that point. And he went through several rough years, thankfully managing to stay out of prison. But then he managed to gradually start using some of the manual skills that he picked up in the community because there was a very, very good educational program that was undertaken at the community Poor Boys to help them develop manual skills, and he actually managed to hold down jobs in various fields, becoming very much a jack-of-all-trades.

Graeme: 39:04

He’d actually got married and had a stable partner for 20 years, or over 20 years, and had two sons that were going through university.

Graeme: 39:37

This chap, who came from an absolutely appallingly dysfunctional family background of intergenerational poverty, had actually broken the cycle. It was extraordinary. He said that he still struggles a bit and he had at that time when he reached out to me, he said he’d recently become involved with a group who was seeking to raise the level of public awareness of the sorts of experiences that he and his siblings had gone through very early in their life. For him, before he had got to the Cotswold community, because he’d gone in and out of foster homes and some dreadful situations that did not work, and he said that that was a very difficult process, you know, reflecting back on that whole very early time. But he said that he was being supported a bit through that process and he was feeling that he was coming up a better person through it. And he was feeling that he was coming up a better person through it.

Graeme: 40:58

But, as I said, I was absolutely thrilled that you know this chap, who had come from a totally, totally dysfunctional family and the family had been dysfunctional for generations had actually broken the cycle and was living, you know, a healthy life where he was enjoying a stable partnership. A stable partnership, he was enjoying being a father and caring for his sons and and he’d developed various hobbies outside of work that were giving him a lot of joy. You know that was very much that. I guess that fitted in while I’m thinking about it, that fitted in with my initial interest in the whole thing of how one builds up human capital.

Colby: 42:00

Yeah, how one builds up human capital. Yeah, it’s a really. It’s a beautiful story of growth potential, even amongst our most disadvantaged, in many ways, young people, that they still have tremendous growth potential. And I think you’ve had the benefit as well, through this experience, of being able to make the connection with work that you did and work that was done in the community and what comes after in the community and what comes after and this is one of the things that I similarly have a lot of experience of care-experienced young people that I worked with during their time in care making contact with me, and it really provides, I think, a really valuable perspective on the work that was done and, in particular, the importance, I think, of relational connection, the fact that he sought you out and made the contact with you, which would have been a fantastic experience for you, but reflected very well on his experience of you when he was in those formative years.

Graeme: 43:33

I’d obviously love to know a lot more of his story, but I’m very conscious that and I’m sure that you would have had the same experience that you need to be conscious that they need to pace the contact. It’s very much up to them as to when they’re ready to disclose parts of their story parts of their story.

Colby: 44:07

But yeah, I think, um, I think, when um john whitwell was was paraphrasing winnicott, um, and he talked about this in the podcast about winnicott and the idea of the, of the, you know, the, the children being like a bulb and we, and the growth was in the bulb John referred to, and I think that’s a very interesting perspective that everyone has, in the right circumstances, in the right containing environment, has the potential to grow. Yeah, when you said you moved, after being at the Cotswold community, you moved back to Australia and you worked in healthcare management and your career developed onwards into international health management and consultancy and you’ve worked across a great number of countries. But I’m curious as to whether there were elements of your experience at the Cotswold community that you took into that work and continue to reflect on.

Graeme: 45:18

Yes, look, as I said, one of the things that struck me when I first met Richard and the team at the Cosmo was their commitment to seeing the work very much in a systems approach.

Graeme: 45:38

The work very much in a systems approach, and I know that that very much affected the way that I viewed my work in healthcare management, whereby rather than looking at each individual work area separately, one looks at the whole system, the whole organisation, because in any system the different parts impact upon each other.

Graeme: 46:16

And during my time in healthcare management I became very interested and active in the quality management area and for a while there I was an accreditation surveyor for the Australian healthcare quality process. And when one looks at the quality in a complex organisation like a hospital, one really needs to look at the whole organisation. Because you know you may have a world-leading you know you may have a world-leading you know cardiothoracic surgeon and an extraordinary you know interventional radiology unit. But if you actually don’t have the connections between them, which may be as simple, as you don’t have the porters and the wheeling the person to and fro, you don’t have the medical records system, you don’t have the porters and the wheeling the person to and fro, you don’t have the medical records system, you don’t have the nursing system, they’re all working together in a harmonious way Then your quality can be very compromised. And so the systems approach that was adopted at the Cotswold community very much influenced the way that I took work into healthcare management.

Colby: 47:53

Yeah.Graeme: 

47:55

And to some extent in international health as well, in that I worked very much on national disease programs around the world and one needed to. You knew that for a country to be effective in, for instance, their program for HIV or TB or whatever, needed to not just look at the delivery process of drugs. You need to look at the supply system all the way through. You need to look at the legal system that they’re operating in in the country. You need to look at the uh, the messages that um, the elders, the community thought leaders, like the religious leaders, that they are sending in the community. So you need to take a total systems approach. So I think that that initial grounding that I experienced in the Cotswolds to a systems approach was, for me, extremely valuable.

Colby: 49:13

Yeah, and my understanding of how that looked in the Cotswold community is that everyone, all the staff, were trained in the model. All the staff were responsible for the delivery of the model. Yes yes, that’s true.Colby: 49:31

Yeah, and as an example of where that can break down, I remember John Whitwell talking about once he’d moved from the Cotswold to the first therapeutic foster care service within the UK. He made a similar point in relation to the drivers that they relied upon to transport young people to school and so on and that the observation that when the drivers were not were out of sync or asynchronous with other endeavour, that that has an observable impact on your capacity to achieve the outcomes of your endeavours.

Graeme: 50:21

Yes, yes.

Colby: 50:24

And you moved into international healthcare management and consultancy. What kind of motivated you to go there?

Graeme: 50:31

Well, I guess it was that original interest of mine in the concept of human capital, but very much on a macro scale.

Colby: 50:41

Yeah.

Graeme: 50:43

You know I was looking at what was happening in whole countries, not just in local communities or individuals. And also the knowledge and this is what we see in this field of treatment for disturbed children the knowledge that many of these interventions are massively, massively, massively cost effective. When I hear politicians drumming on about, oh, we’ve got to increase productivity, you know there is just so much that we can do as a society. That is massively cost effective. You know, rather than well, you would know, in dealing with disturbed children, you know, rather than locking them up in very, very costly and very destructive warehousing facilities where they are not going to really gain anything at all, you know. But if we do invest in them, hopefully very early in the piece, well before they become, you know, disturbed adolescents, but very early in the piece, you know the paybacks are enormous.

Colby: 52:11

Even so, if they’re disturbed adolescents, because the example you gave of the young person now not a young person anymore who contacted you, I mean think of the savings to society in the way and the breaking of that cycle and the way in which his family life and his children being at university, where the alternative would be to repeat the troubles that that family had, and there is a massive cost to society.

Graeme: 52:45

Indeed. So, the cost will. In those fields that I was working in, like in TB, I’ve seen various studies that suggest that for each dollar that’s put into a TB program, society gets $42 back. A similar in malaria and HIV, not at that level. I’ve seen figures of around $20 to the one. You know phenomenal payback, and you know, I’m sure, that there are similar studies in the area of treatment of young children.

Colby: 53:29

Yeah, I can’t say that I’m aware of them it’s not an area of professional reading that I do but I think it’s a point very well made in a number of ways, not least of which the description of the person who got in contact with you all these decades later, that if we, there is a tremendous benefit to our society by intervening in a therapeutic rather than a punitive way. In a therapeutic way with our troubled young people.

Graeme: 54:17

Yes.

Colby: 54:18

And the forward-thinking governments and administrators who hold the funding. Forward-thinking ones would do well to invest well in that area for the sake of. I found myself saying to a guest yesterday that the work we do is not only of benefit to the young people who are in front of us, but to their children and grandchildren as well.

Graeme: 54:55

Indeed.

Colby: 54:56

And it’s a very salutary reflection. I think yes, so, yeah. So do you have any kind of, all these years later, any ongoing or final reflections about your time at the Cotswold?

Graeme: 55:15

community. Oh well, look, it was obviously an astonishing privilege to have worked there during that time because it was very much leading edge, both from a clinical therapy point of view but also leading edge from that management approach as well, in that Richard and the team at the Tavistock who would consult with the community were very much, you know, studying how do we manage caring organisations, that they work most effectively, and that was an extraordinary experience. And, you know, obviously it was astonishing working in very much that learning environment where, you know, we were always studying the papers by Winnicott or Dr Drysdale or Bruno Bettelheim or others, and that was an extraordinary, very demanding experience. You know, I’d normally be reading between 10pm and 1am every night, so it was an extraordinary experience extraordinary is a good word, because, um, uh, they they’re not.

Colby: 56:50

It’s not the kind of reading that that someone who has a degree in economics, I guess, would necessarily. Or, you know, and people depending on what background drew people to that work. You know what was their formative or prior education. It’s not the sort of reading that I guess that they would necessarily have ever expected to be reading, ever expected to be reading. Um, it does make me, um, yeah, it does. It does make me wonder what, what people who work in a similar field are reading these days, what the what, the expectations around the growth in their potentials is. Um, look, it’s been fantastic having you answer a number of questions.

Colby: 57:43

I always, at the well, I’ve I’m developing a habit with these podcasts of uh, offering for the guests to ask me a question at the end because I’ve asked so many. I do. I do often. Um, I don’t often ask young people a lot of questions, but if it’s, if the circumstances are that I have to ask them more than just a small number of questions about something or other, I do the same for them. I say well, you know, I’ve asked you a lot of questions. Here you go, you can ask me a question. I’m pleased to say most of them are relatively safe in the sense that they generally ask me what my age is and I give them the answer. I used to give the answer in months, but someone worked that out how to do so I now give them my age in dog and cat years and they do they. Some of them have kind of cottoned on to that a bit now. But yeah, I pride myself on being able to answer questions without notice. I’m happy to answer a question if you have one of me.

Graeme: 58:49

Well, look, I would be fascinated to know whether you’re aware of therapeutic residential settings in Australia that are working with the highly damaged children, similar to what we’re working with in the Cotswolds, in that obviously I’m aware of individual or family-based therapy here. I get the impression that some of the residential ones are not dealing so much with the very troubled, damaged children, similar to what we were working with in the consulates. But I welcome you enlightening me as to what’s going on here.

Colby: 59:45

Well, if I speak for South Australia first, and based on my experience and an observation, residential care has gone through a lot of changes here in south australia in the last few years in terms of the structure and delivery of residential care. But certainly, um, our most troubled young people are in, um, they can, they can potentially be in each of the three main types of out-of-home care, which is foster care, residential foster care, kinship care. So, with with kin, usually family or residential care. I would say there was a, there was, there was a devolution from several years ago, from having congregate facilities, where there was eight or more or so in a facility, they’ve been devolved into smaller community houses where there would be one or more, really, depending on the complexity of the young person. And again, I don’t work in the residential care sector in our local departments. I may have omitted some of the things that they’re doing, but that would be my observation. I am aware, though, though, and as I said early on in this podcast, I interviewed, uh, someone whose podcast is likely to come out immediately before yours, who who was involved, um in the development of a facility in Victoria called Hurstbridge Farm, which I think is probably the closest thing that I’m aware of in Australia to what you describe as having been in place there at the Cotswold community.

Colby: 1:01:56

There are a few things that we don’t have that they had and or have maintained in the UK. So you know, barbara Docker, drysdale was equally perhaps more famous for establishing the therapeutic school, the Mulberry Bush. Yes, and there are the Mulberry Bush schools and those. There are several of those schools that continue to exist and in the United Kingdom where the kind of you know the Cotswold community and other therapeutic residential communities like that no longer exist and I think that they would be a good addition to our care landscape in Australia. In Australia, I think that I think it is. It is our loss to not have those kinds of. I know that there’s been scandals about them. I’m hoping to get a guest on who has looked into some of the myths and the factual or non-factual basis for some of the beliefs that exist about residential care.

Graeme: 1:03:08

Yes, Well, I guess that emphasises, I guess, how courageous Richard Balbirnie was in establishing the Cotswolds and taking it through that very, very difficult transition from an old-style facility.

Colby: 1:03:30

Yeah, so yeah, and then, yeah, I’m not au fait with other jurisdictions. Just, you know what’s happening in Victoria I’m aware of through connections and through a very recent podcast interview, but I would be pleased to know. I’ve worked overseas in Ireland as well, and they do have secure care facilities for their most at-risk young people, and that’s something that they’ve, as I understand it, has, been grappled with the implications of having a secure facility for our most at-risk young people. I think, here in Australia and here in South Australia, that we had a recent Royal Commission relatively recent that grappled with that issue, but probably that fell on the side of having a secure facility for our young people in such desperate straits is probably, you know, doesn’t necessarily doesn’t meet our human rights obligations, I guess, amongst other things. So I think, though, what I would say about the Cotswold community is is I would highlight some of the things that you’ve talked about that commitment to continuous growth, to parallel growth, you know, with the staff and the young people, that systemic approach, making sure that everyone is aligned and pulling in the same direction and pulling in the same direction, the implementation, maintenance of a therapeutic model, and I’m not aware of outcome study.

Colby: 1:05:35

There’s, you know data is key here, or king. I’m not aware of outcome studies, but I’m aware of, you know, a long career in an area of endeavour is kind of like research in and of itself. It doesn’t hold the same status as data collected within an academic institution same status as data collected within an academic institution, but across a long career, as I’ve had you can, I can reflect on the good outcomes that were developed with good practices and I can reflect on the you know, the problematic outcomes longer-term outcomes, adult people now, where things were not so great in terms of our care and management when they were growing up. They call that anecdotal. Sure, yeah, it was an enormous privilege, graeme, to speak to you and I really thank you for your preparedness to be on my fledgling podcast and share your experience and wisdom.

Graeme: 1:06:55

Well, thank you for reaching out and asking me to reflect back on what was an extraordinary um experience and very much a growing experience for myself yeah, well, thank you.

Colby: 1:07:09

I hope it was a good experience reflecting back, yeah.

Healing Through Relationship: A Lifetime in Therapeutic Care

An Ordinary Life Is the Great Aspiration

The journey of creating effective therapeutic interventions for traumatized children is filled with both challenges and profound rewards. This became abundantly clear during my conversation with Adela Holmes, whose remarkable 52-year career in child protection and therapeutic care has shaped Victoria’s approach to supporting its most vulnerable young people.

The evolution of therapeutic residential care in Victoria emerged from a crisis. During the 1990s, a well-intentioned but poorly executed deinstitutionalization process left residential care workers isolated and under-resourced. As Adela explained, the consequences were devastating: “Staff were encouraged to ring the police if a young person was out of control, which of course is the beginning of a long period of criminalisation.” This criminalization created a revolving door between the child protection and youth justice systems, with children entering through the family division of courts only to return repeatedly through the criminal division.

This crisis prompted judicial intervention and a pivotal report called “When Care Is Not Enough,” which recommended developing specialized mental health services for child protection clients and creating a therapeutic residential care model. These recommendations ultimately led to the creation of two groundbreaking programs: Take-Two Intensive Therapeutic Service and Hurstbridge Farm. Adela played an instrumental role in designing and implementing both programs, drawing on international therapeutic models while adapting them to the Australian context.

What made Hurstbridge Farm truly transformative wasn’t the rural setting, though many assume this was the key. As Adela emphasized, “People think that it’s the farm environment that is the key, but it’s not. It’s relationships.” The program’s success rested on fundamental principles: psychological containment, co-regulation, and consistent, caring relationships. The approach was remarkably simple yet profound – staff would never leave children alone, walking with them everywhere on the property, providing that continuous “calm presence” that traumatized children desperately need to feel safe.

The outcomes speak volumes about the model’s effectiveness. While a comparison group of similar young people either plateaued or deteriorated, 65-75% of the young people at Hurstbridge Farm showed clear improvements in their lives. As Adela puts it, her goal was simply “an ordinary life” for these children – a seemingly modest aspiration that represented a monumental achievement given their traumatic beginnings.

Adela’s experience offers crucial lessons for contemporary child welfare systems, which often seek cost-saving measures at the expense of therapeutic integrity. Her message to policy makers is unambiguous: “Don’t fiddle with what does work. Add to what does work. Take a deep breath. Spend the money now, because in 10 years’ time, 15 years’ time, is when the judgment will come.” She articulates what many practitioners know but systems often forget – that investing in relational capacity and psychological healing pays enormous dividends in reduced crime, improved wellbeing, and enhanced social capital.

The legacy of Hurstbridge Farm continues today, with the model still being implemented. As Adela discovered on a recent visit, “It has the same sense of order, the same sense of calm.” This continuity testifies to the model’s durability and effectiveness, challenging the common narrative that residential care is inherently problematic. Instead, her work demonstrates that well-designed therapeutic residential care can be transformative for our most vulnerable young people, offering them the healing, containment and relational experiences they need to thrive.

You can listen to Adela here:

You can watch at the link below:

About Adela

Adela has a career spanning 52-years, during which she has worked in the child protection, child & family welfare & out of home care fields for both the Victorian state government and the non-government sector.

Adela has a well-established track record in designing, developing and delivering complex trauma grounded therapeutic care services for the most complex and challenging children and adolescents, and an expertise for working successfully with and supporting others to work with these children and adolescents.

During her career Adela has designed and been involved in the ‘start up’ leadership and management of significant therapeutic service initiatives funded by the Victorian state government. These include the ‘Take Two” Intensive Therapeutic Service and the Victorian government’s successful pilot therapeutic residential care program, Hurstbridge Farm. 12 other pilot programs were developed using the same model and, in 2011, all 13 were evaluated as being highly effective in producing positive life outcomes.

Adela has been specialising as a trainer in the utilisation of complex trauma frameworks since 2000 and during this time has consolidated an extensive knowledge base and expertise in trauma & attachment informed therapeutic practice, both as a practitioner and a trainer of these skills.

Adela also specialises in the facilitation of Reflective Practice Groups and, in her consultancy work, Adela delivers to such groups as a visiting consultant on a regular basis.

In October 2024 Adela was awarded the inaugural Centre for Excellence in Child & Family Welfare Industry Lifetime Achievement Award for Services to Out of Home Care

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Transcript:

Colby: 0:00

Welcome to the Secure Start podcast.

Adela: 0:02

People used to say to me at the start well, you know, what are you aiming for with these kids? And I would say an ordinary life, because an ordinary life is the great aspiration for children who’ve experienced trauma Almost everywhere. I mean not everywhere, but almost everywhere I’ve been not everywhere, but almost everywhere there have been great compassionate mentors.

Adela: 0:31

But the day I knew that something had clicked for him was one of the other kids was having his birthday and we were having a barbecue on the deck and he had forgotten to bring the boys present that he’d made in the school. And he came up to me and he said will you walk with me up to the house? I want to get the present. Then the children’s court magistrates intervened and wrote a letter to the department saying what is happening in your residential care system? Because we’re seeing children come in through the family division and then they come back before us again and again and again in the criminal division. It’s compelling to try and save resources, but what do we do in terms of the judgment and the decision we make about the lives of people you’ve never met?

Colby: 1:39

Hi, I’m Colby Pearce, and joining me for this episode is a highly experienced expert practitioner here in Australia. Before I introduce my guest, I’d just like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land we’re meeting on the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains, for me, and the Wurundjeri people of the Melbourne area of Victoria, for my guest. I’d also like to acknowledge the continuing connection that all living Aboriginal people feel to land, waters, culture and community and pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging. My guest this episode is Adela Holmes. Adela has a career spanning 52 years, during which she has worked in the child protection, child and family welfare and out-of-home care fields for both the Victorian state government and the non-government sector.

Colby: 2:45

Adela has a well-established track record in designing, developing and delivering complex, trauma-grounded therapeutic care services for the most complex and challenging children and adolescents, and an expertise for working successfully with and supporting others to work with these children and adolescents. During her career, adela has designed and been involved in the start-up, leadership and management of significant therapeutic service initiatives funded by the Victorian State Government. These include the Take-Two Intensive Therapeutic Service and the Victorian Government’s successful pilot therapeutic residential care program, hurstbridge Farm. Twelve other pilot programs were developed using the same model and in 2011, all 13 were evaluated as being highly effective in producing positive life outcomes. Being highly effective in producing positive life outcomes, adela has been specializing as a trainer in the utilization of complex trauma frameworks since 2000 and during this time, has consolidated an extensive knowledge base and expertise in trauma and attachment-informed therapeutic practice, both as a practitioner and a trainer. Adela also specialises in the facilitation of reflective practice groups and in her consultancy work. Adela delivers to such groups as a visiting consultant on a regular basis.

Colby: 4:20

In October 2024, adela was awarded the inaugural Centre for Excellence in Child and Family Welfare Industry Lifetime Achievement Award for services to out-of-home care. Adela has no interest in retiring, as she loves what she does and still has much energy to provide input into the healing care of children impacted by complex trauma. Adela believes strongly in the capacity of well-designed and well-executed models of therapeutic residential care to bring about effective healing that is grounded in the growth of real relational capacity. In such settings, well-trained individuals can bring about the kind of real change required to heal from traumatic early beginnings and trust in the capacity of adults to provide safe, loving, respectful and kind care. Welcome, adela.

Adela: 5:22

Thank you, colby, good to be here.

Colby: 5:25

And Adela. I’m 30 years deep into a career, working in a very similar space to you in the adjoining state here in Australia, and I think your ongoing energy and passion is remarkable, which is not to say that I’m not still passionate about the work, but I do experience some dips in energy from time to time. How have you sustained your energy and passion for this work across 52 years?

Adela: 5:59

Well, it’s a really interesting question because 52 years ago when I started, I’d really fallen into the work. As I think I was saying to you a bit earlier, I started out my adult life as a folk singer. I was singing, I was born and raised in the UK, came to Australia in 1965, and it was at the height of coffee lounges and folk singers and I’d always sung. I was as a little girl. I was put up on tables and said oh really.

Adela: 6:45

Yeah, at family weddings or other dos, so I’d always sung. Got here, saw that there were a lot of coffee lounges, thought oh, this looks good, and so I kind of fell into this work. So I kind of fell into this work. But I always had an interest in the mind and psychology and things connected with that. So I read in a fairly eclectic manner from the age of about 16 with that sphere.

Adela: 7:24

In fact, the first book I read was by a guy called AS Neill N-E-I-L-L, a Scottish teacher who opened up a school in the UK for children with difficulties. It was a boarding school and the school was called Summerhill. The school was called Summer Hill. The book was called. Summer Hill then got interested in the work of RD Lang, the Scottish psychiatrist, and I think the people who I read back then had formed my thinking, because they had enormous passion and energy for the work.

Adela: 8:12

So there was no such thing as not being passionate about it and I think that mindset just has stuck with me because they were passionate and their writings showed that, demonstrated that passion really strongly. And I suppose the other thing, which is not a very scientific answer, but I’ve always, as an individual in my memory, only ever had on and off. There’s not a modulator in between. I’m either on or off. So when.

Adela: 8:56

I’m on. I’m on. I do have off times, but off time we’ll be reading or doing other fun things which some people might describe as on time. I don’t know. But I think also when you see what you do works, that kind of you know drives you with a bit of passion to keep going and do more of it.

Colby: 9:30

Yeah, yeah, I think you’re right. It’s reassuring, it’s reinforcing, I think was also the word I was looking for there. Yeah, it’s a vocation rather than a job, isn’t it?

Adela: 9:48

It is, it absolutely is. Yeah. And I know that. That’s why I have no intention to retire, because, you’re right, it is a vocation.

Colby: 10:03

Yeah, yeah, wonderful. Right, it is a vocation. Yeah, yeah, wonderful. So, um, you’ve part. I was going to ask you, uh, what led you to working in the area of designing and implementing therapeutic residential care programs, which is of great interest to me? Um, and one of the reasons why I started this podcast and chose certain people to interview but I’ve heard you speak already about those first two authors who designed therapeutic schools Reminds me a lot of the Dr Drysdale’s and the Mulberry Bush School. Yes.

Colby: 10:47

And of course Barbara Dr Drysdale was very important in the early days of the Cotswold community. Absolutely, and I’ve recently had John Whitwell on.

Adela: 11:00

Yeah, I saw that interview. I’ve met John when I was in the UK in 2008. And also, you know I do a fair bit of interface with Patrick Tomlinson. Yes.

Adela: 11:19

And I have said to him laughingly that I have what I call Cotswold envy because I was too young. Well, no, actually I’m older than him, but at the time that I was in the UK I couldn’t have worked in a setting like that because I was too young. And then I came to Australia and there was no such thing as a setting like that no, no. So I guess I never well, I did my own. But you know, we, I think, created something similar at Hirst.

Adela: 11:59

Not quite the same but very similar. But again that sort of sense of vocation, when you see something works. You know I’ve always also been what’s the word? Pretty outspoken, I suppose, but only in defence of something good you know, but a lot of times things that have worked haven’t necessarily been promulgated further because of systemic issues egos, which play a role in there, and resources, which play a role in there, and resources, and you know when you see that getting in the way of something that works to heal kids.

Adela: 12:54

I will never be quiet about that, never, ever.Colby: 12:57

Yeah, well, good on you. Yeah, it is frustrating that often extraneous factors are what gets in the way of the longevity of certain programs and, of course, the Cotswold I have a lot to do with Patrick as well, and the Cotswold community is no longer, and part of that, as my understanding, had to do with scandals that occurred in the residential care sector in the UK. But I’m hoping to speak to someone on a future podcast that can shed a bit of light on about, um that issue, the issue of quality of care and consistency of care, good quality care in in in residential care versus other forms of of out-of-home care. But so watch your space, people. Um, haven’t haven’t quite got there yet, but hoping to. And the other thing you wouldn’t have found here was therapeutic schools.

Adela: 14:09

No.Colby: 

14:10

No.Adela: 

14:11

No, and I know, having been brought up in the UK.

Adela: 14:15

there’s that long history of what was called Borschtel, which were residential, corrective residential schools, which have morphed into something different, but those residential schools that were therapeutic. I’ve read a lot about many of them and when I was putting together the Hurstbridge model, a big part of my research was a book that was put together. I think it was edited by Adrian Ward. A lot of people who had run services that I think grew from the Cotswold community had written chapters in the book that I read, and I actually met many of those people. When I was in the UK in 2008, alan Worthington and I went to the Mulberry Bush School. Yes, so all you know the places that had sort of grown out of the console community.

Adela: 15:27

I made it my business, wherever I could, to visit them and I must say that, adrian Ward, all I did was send him an email saying I’m going to be in the UK in November. I wonder if you could give me some numbers to contact people so I could go and see services? Yep, he developed me a whole one-week itinerary of visiting. Oh, wow. I was knocked out. And.

Adela: 15:57

I just, you know, got on the train and went from one place to another and was absolutely knocked out with what I saw. But it was great. I’d been doing Hurstbridge for a year at the time and I could see some of the practices that I based Hurstbridge on and I could see how well they worked and that gave me great fire and inspiration to keep going.

Colby: 16:29

Awesome, yeah, so we will talk more in a little bit about Hurst Bridge, and I know that people who are listening to this podcast and know anything about you will be very keen to hear you talk more about that. I’m just wondering you know you’ve come, you talked about, you’ve read some books about therapeutic work, therapeutic residential work, including in a school-based setting. How did you? But you’ve also talked about how it just didn’t exist here. How did you come to be at the forefront of developing these therapeutic residential care programs like Hearst Bridge? Who?

Colby: 17:13

you talk about. As I said, how did you get into that space to be able to bring it about?

Adela: 17:21

Yeah, it’s a good question when I reflect on it. So I mean my first job at the end of 1972, and it’s funny, I was in well funny, strange juxtaposition between doing this interview and events over the past two or three weeks here. I had a very formative, mentor-mentee relationship with a woman called Pat Simmons who had been the superintendent.

Adela: 17:58

we’re talking old times here of the very first place that I worked of the very first place that I worked, as I said, I fell into my study, discovered I could do it, discovered I had a real ability to do it. And then it was kind of onwards and upwards. But I was doing my final placement in doing welfare studies and it was at a place called Youth Welfare Division in what was then called the Social Welfare Department.

Adela: 18:37

It was a very new department in Melbourne, in Victoria, and so it was office-based and you would go out and do outreach visits to young people who were in the institutions. Because it was all institutionally based. At the time and it was coming to the end of the course, my only income capacity was back to the coffee lounges and earning $5 a night until I could find something in the sector. And I spoke to the person in charge then at that place and I said are there any jobs going here? He said, well, no, there aren’t. But there’s a very new initiative starting up in May next year. It’s a community-based diversionary program to keep young women out of the institution. And I thought, oh, that does sound interesting. So I did a couple of interviews with the people who were going to run it. But then I said to him well, that’s great, that’s good in May next year, but here we are in November now and I need to earn some money. Is there anything else?

Adela: 20:08

And he suggested that I work at the institution that they were building this diversionary program for, which was a place called Wynne-Leighton, so it had upwards of 100 girls who had been through the children’s court either for criminal offences or were considered to be what they called back then exposed to moral danger. Okay.

Adela: 20:41

In need of care, basically. So I said, all right, I had no real idea what I was walking into exactly, but it sounded like it was up my alley. So I said yes, went to work there. And by golly I mean there were some things I would never replicate. And by golly I mean there were some things I would never replicate, but there were many elements of the relational aspect of working with themselves that I retain to this day. And there was a woman there running the place called, as I say, pat Simmons. Pat very sadly suffered from dementia for the last eight to ten years, I think, and she died on Good Friday.

Adela: 21:34

So I went to her funeral last Friday and I was thinking a lot about exactly what you’ve asked me.

Adela: 21:41

And I suppose what I saw when I went into that role at Wynne-Leighton told me what you should do and what you shouldn’t do in deeply experiential terms, because it was like I walked in, I put my uniform on and there I was and I just had to do it and I saw from the very beginning, with Pat’s mentorship, that it was all about relational capacity, regulation and co-regulation. I didn’t use those words then, but that’s what it felt like and that’s later what I learned it was and the capacity to look past behaviour and understand what sat behind it. And you know, we were working two staff on a unit with 24 girls in it and you had to learn some very valuable things about the mood and the rhythm of what was happening in that large group of young women and also, therefore, how to intervene in a way that was a bit cleverer than just. You can’t do that, because that doesn’t work. It might work for 10 minutes or half an hour, but it doesn’t actually do anything, doesn’t change anything.

Colby: 23:25

Probably just stirs them up.Adela: 23:27

Yeah Well, actually, someone at the funeral talked about an event where a number of young women had climbed up on the roof of this place when they’d and I’m not quite sure what the reason was they weren’t either with Nathan. I’m not quite sure what the reason was, they weren’t either, but talked about the example of how Pat you know everybody was going to ring the fire brigade and the police and it was all going to escalate.

Adela: 23:56

But Pat said no, don’t want you to do any of that. I’m going to go up there and talk.

Colby: 24:05

I thought you were going to say that.

Adela: 24:08

And she did, and within half an hour and the shouting calmed down. Within half an hour they’d all taken off their clothes and they were standing up there in their underwear. Within half an hour they were all starting to feel cold. Why? Because they weren’t in a heightened state. Their heightened state was making them immune to the cold, but all of a sudden, when they started to come down and engage in the conversation with Pat, they started to feel cold. All put their clothes on, climbed down and came inside. So that’s the kind of person she was and that’s the kind of mentorship I received right from the word go. And that’s the kind of mentorship I received right from the word go. And it just fitted so well with what I’d read in Summerhill, what I’d read of Artie Lang’s work. Artie Lang lived in a household with people who were diagnosed with schizophrenia.

Adela: 25:15

He was no believer in schizophrenia. He resided in a house with them. I think there was a film made of it, called I think it was called Sanctuary. But a number of people worked with them and lived with them and you know, if you look at the film it’s probably unable to be accessed anymore, but I saw it. It’s just people talking to each other.

Colby: 25:45

That’s what I mean when you’re describing your role, that initial role in, I guess what we would think about more these days in terms of a youth training centre for girls out more these days in terms of a youth training centre for girls.

Colby: 26:03

um, I was, you were talking about the staff to to girls ratio which was, yeah, quite different to what you might observe these days, but and I, my mind was initially going to well, my mind was going to well it’s not how good a disciplinarian you are that will maintain calmness and order in that unit. It’s how well you’re able to develop a relationship with all the individuals, because the relationship is the most powerful regulating influence that you would have had at that time. And part of that is, as you said, is engaging with the young people with deep understanding of their experience, so not getting distracted with what they’re doing but focusing more on why they’re doing those things. And in those circumstances, the young people feel heard and understood and validated in their experience and they’ll regulate in consideration of their relationship.

Adela: 27:00

They’ll regulate without realising even why or how, because the person is interested in them. It never ceases to amaze me. I think a lot in metaphors, right, and I often use the metaphor of what works in physical health and what works in emotional, psychological health.

Adela: 27:27

Now, if you walked into the emergency room of a hospital and went up to the triage nurse and said, oh, you know, I’ve got a pain in my right side, and said, oh, you know, I’ve got a pain in my right side, does the triage nurse use a bit of compassion and empathy and get the details from you and help you feel better? Or do they yell at you from behind the glass? Stop that this minute. Yell at you from behind the glass, stop that this minute. But it’s the same thing with what’s going on emotionally. We come to triage kids every day of the week.

Adela: 28:12

You know I do either directly or indirectly with staff who need to work directly with them and where’s the compassion you know, where’s the understanding that we would automatically apply if it was something physical.

Colby: 28:34

I think it’s that question what’s really going on here? Yeah. It’s not what you present with, it’s the you know, yeah, the reason for that, that presentation, yeah.

Adela: 28:47

But it seems to the desire or the ability to do that seems to fly out of the window, when what we’re looking at is something to do with behaviour, right, and that’s something to do with the person on the other end as well. Mm-hmm.

Adela: 29:09

So I guess thinking about that induction into the work and working in the diversionary program that we did, that, I think, helps me to understand what set me on a pathway, and the pathway wasn’t straight. I you know. I did some things. I went back to singing for a little while, came back into the work, worked in child protection in the mid-’70s. I think my good fortune along the way has been that almost everywhere I’ve been not everywhere, but almost everywhere there have been great, compassionate mentors. Not to the same extent as Pat no one. I don’t think anyone will ever achieve the level of mentorship and influence that she had on my later career and thinking that she had on my later career and thinking but they’re in pockets, that approach, there’s enough people out there to be able to go.

Adela: 30:30

Yeah, okay, so we’re not going to do this, we’re going to approach this in this way and use the brains that we have in our heads to think about this intelligently and seeing that in those early days and seeing the results of my you’d have to say rudimentary attempts to work relationally with kids. But I learned from what didn’t work and what did work. But seeing that, I think has provided me with the fuel for the passion to keep going in it and, of course, because I had that fuel for the passion, I stayed on that track. So my passion, really, I do other things and I’m as passionate about those other things, but my first passion was for therapeutically working in a residential setting, because you have the entire day, the entire life of the young person rolling out before you and that affords us so many opportunities.

Colby: 31:51

So your passion led you ultimately to Hurstbridge and the development of the Hurstbridge residential farm and community. I think people who are listening would really love to hear a little bit about how Hurstbridge came about and your role in that and the model of care that you were responsible for there.

Adela: 32:14

Yeah, okay. So there’s a little bit of systemic explanation I have to do to explain how both Take Two and Hurstbridge Farm came about. Yep.

Adela: 32:27

So in the early 90s in Victoria there was a Premier called Geoffrey Kennett. I think he’s quite well known because he was a it was a liberal Victorian government and he was a person who understood the value of a funding cut let’s put it that way and was looking at things in a different way. Now, through the late 80s, there had been many discussions about the need to deinstitutionalise services in the state Great discussions. But by the time he came into power, those discussions had taken a slightly different twist, because they obviously also afforded the opportunity to cut money and redeploy resources, which he made full use of, might I say.

Colby: 33:40

I remember.

Adela: 33:43

So, in actuality, the deinstitutionalisation process was to some extent, and it probably varied across the state and the service system, but it was to some extent put into the probably varied across the state and the service system, but it was to some extent put into the service of funding cuts and refocusing of funding.

Adela: 34:10

Having said that, what that resulted in was a deinstitutionalisation process for young people that was probably quite stripped of resources in a way. It was never intended to be. I can’t say that for sure, but that’s my guess. So what that meant was that the way it was done was quite squished. So the staff who had worked in the institutions some of them were offered the option of redundancy packages and some of them were redeployed to work with kids in houses in the community. But of course there is a very big difference between working with children in an institutional setting, with all the things that surround you, and working in a house in a suburb with access to no one and nothing. You’re on your own, you know. And over the course of about two or three years the workforce was heading towards being quite industrialised about that.

Adela: 35:29

People were getting assaulted, of course, children and young people who really struggle with internal regulation for all the reasons we know in terms of complex trauma and early life experiences, are going to punch a hole in the wall when they’re frustrated because they can’t talk about how they feel. Now, in the institution there were solutions for that, but in the community there weren’t any. So the staff were encouraged to ring the police if a young person was out of control, which of course is the beginning of a long period of criminalisation of these young people, and I have nothing to base this on but my own experience. But I would not mind hazarding a guess that up to 80% or 90% of adult people now in prison were those children, because they became criminalised not all of them, but a fair percentage. So you know we were on a hiding to nothing in the system and during that period of time I was working in child protection very closely seeing the impacts of these decisions, and I was a case planner.

Adela: 37:10

So these decisions were having a major impact on the quality of care that we were able to provide children on the quality of care that we were able to provide children and in the mid or the industrialisation was noted, and what the response to that was was the outsourcing to the community service sector. It was a great solution.

Colby: 37:38

I think it’s someone else’s problem.

Adela: 37:39

Yeah, and the same thing happened. What we ended up with in the mid-’90s was a highly criminalised group of children in the residential care system, which could have been something wonderful, but ended up something not wonderful. Then the Children’s Court magistrates intervened and wrote a letter to the department, whatever it was called. Then it changes names every so often it does a bit.

Adela: 38:15

yeah, Wrote a letter saying what is happening in your residential care system Because we’re seeing children come in through the family division and then they come back before us again and again and again in the criminal division. And good on them because they called it out. Yeah.

Adela: 38:36

And that led to the commissioning of an investigation and a report. The investigation was undertaken by a fabulous woman called Robin Clark and two associates looking at those children who were coming back before the criminal division of the courts. Again and again and again I case-planned some of them, so I was quite involved in that process. And to cut a very long story short, the report, which is called when Care Is Not Enough, which I highly recommend to anybody. It was published in 1999, but it’s as relevant now as it was then because it’s based on the same truth. And in that their two main recommendations were number one the Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service System does not suit child protection clients. They won’t go, they won’t front up and so develop a service designed specifically for those kids that became TAG2. And develop a therapeutic residential care model. That became Hearst Bridge Farm. So they were the two recommendations of that report. That review and report the government changed to a labour persuasion.

Colby: 40:12

More sympathetic perhaps.

Adela: 40:14

And there were quite a number of people who were very committed to doing this, and so from about 2000 to 2002, there was a lot of activity in the head office of the department and they came up with the realizationisation that what probably would make sense was to go first with the outreach service and put some energy into that. At that time I was working for Berry Street. It’s a large service provider in Victoria that is non-religious but funded by the government. Yeah, and I made the mistake. We were all in a meeting. I was in a senior management role. I was relatively new to Mary.

Adela: 41:13

And we were in a meeting discussing the consortium that we were going to put together to put our hands up for that outreach mental health service, I put my hand up like that and said look whoever does it, not thinking that I would you know. I’m fairly junior on the tree. I said whoever does it, I’d really like to help them because I’m very interested in those sorts of services and the ceo.

Adela: 41:46

At the time, a woman called sandy de wolf said no, you can do it oh god, be careful what you ask for yeah, um, I said, oh, oh, really, yeah, this is a 5.5 million dollar program annually, recurrent for three years, with you know, and then, of course, dependent on outcomes.

Adela: 42:12

um, so you know, if we get it, career move, if we don’t get it bad career move, but I said, oh okay, and we had six weeks to write it. I wrote it. I designed the model with the assistance of a couple of people who were in the other parts of the consortium, but we put together what we thought would work and it was all grounded in what was, for us, an emerging understanding about complex trauma and how to approach it. And we got it. It was a good career.

Colby: 43:06

Then you had to do it.

Adela: 43:08

So we got that in. I think we were advised in mid-2000 or, yeah, mid-ish 2003, and mid-ish 2003. And then we got going with it and I got so connected with it I couldn’t really let it go. You know what it’s like? It’s like this is my baby.

Adela: 43:32

So I applied for a position in it and was one of the founding area managers of it. We were led by a fabulous guy psychologist called Rick Pawsey who had worked with the Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service who were part of the consortium. He was a fabulous leader and, again, great mentor. So we had the support from the head office of the department. It was all systems go. We recruited something like 43 people in a month and I remember doing the interviews. It was like oh right, okay, and we were fully staffed by October 2003. And then we started accepting clients in the beginning of 2004. So I was with that endeavour, which was going really well from the start, and in about 2005 the department started to then think about the second recommendation, which was the pilot, and I was at that stage in a role where I was the pilot and I was at that stage in a role where I was the statewide services development manager in TAC2.

Colby: 45:07

TAC2, yeah.

Adela: 45:10

And so really it came to that role to write, pilot and research it, which was extremely exciting because this was my passion. So I’d kind of got myself without a career plan of any sort, but being led by the passion where I was right there.

Colby: 45:38

At the right time. At the right time.

Adela: 45:40

At the right time. It was a very fortunate juxtaposition. So I think I spent about six months reading, researching, mainly drew from the work of Bruce Perry, bessel, van der Kolk, dan Hughes, others, some others as well Sandra Bloom, certainly in terms of how they made sense of what you needed to actually do in working with kids. Put that together with my own experience reading, et cetera, and wrote a proposal for a model. And then we sent it to the two regions who were going to fund it and operate it. And you know that’s nerve-wracking, because he spent all this time reading, putting together writing and it was a massive thing to write. It was really a important and B had to be very precise and grounded in evidence. And that was when I read the book and used the writing from the Cotswold community people and beyond and they came back to us having read it and said we love it, it’s what we want, it is exactly what we want.

Adela: 47:20

So this was my second baby. I already had a daughter, wonderful. So this was like my third baby, really, um, and again I couldn’t not do it really. It was like really, no, come on, you know.

Adela: 47:41

So then I went into the role of being the founding manager of hearstbridge farm yeah, yeah, it’s interesting, colby, because people you know, because we called it hearstbridge Farm because, it was 33 acres with animals on it. People think that it’s the farm environment that is the key, but it’s not.

Colby: 48:07

It’s relationships.

Adela: 48:09

Relationships and the freedom to trial what seems to work in other settings if it works in this setting. We also had fabulous backing to do it at head office level, and I will mention names because I think they deserve to be mentioned. Sure.

Adela: 48:36

The minister at the time was a guy called Gavin Jennings who was a social worker and totally understood what the model was and what we were trying to do, so he was really, really fantastic to have in that role. And the bureaucrat who sat above this and sanctioned all of it is a guy called David Clements who repeatedly said oh, I don’t really understand all this. I mean, he’s a social worker and he does understand it. But he said, oh, I just, you know, I have my faith and trust in the people who are doing it, and I repeatedly over time have said to him yeah, but you know, there you go, Dave, you also understood what we were doing. Yeah, yeah.

Adela: 49:36

I still think he’s a bit too modest. That’s why I named him, because he should take a vow. He made it happen and he had a. You know, if you think of that first cohort of kids who ate, kids who came through the farm, he had a direct impact on their lives, whether he acknowledges it or not.

Colby: 49:57

And their children.

Adela: 49:58

Because he supported it.

Colby: 50:00

Yeah, and their children and their grandchildren.

Adela: 50:04

Yes, absolutely right, absolutely right down through the generations, and a fairly high percentage in the region of 65% to 75% of those young people showed clear improvements in their lives, like an upward trajectory, when a comparison group of kids over the same period either plateaued and stayed troubled or got worse, or got worse yeah. So there’s a fabulous diagram in that report which is called the Verso Evaluation of Therapeutic Residential Care Violence. It’s just there. It’s a very simple graph that they’ve done, but it’s like yeah, so it just changed the trajectory, didn’t it?

Colby: 51:02

Yeah, figuratively and actually.

Adela: 51:06

Yeah, absolutely yeah. So, and we’re still we. I say the. You know, the original staff are still in contact with many of those kids and people used to say to me at the start well, you know, what are you aiming for with these kids? And I would say an ordinary life, because an ordinary life is the great aspiration for children who’ve experienced trauma. What they do with it after that, that’s up to them. They have the wherewithal by that stage. But an ordinary life is good enough for me. And I used to say well, just an ordinary life. And many of them, most of them in fact, have an ordinary life. If it’s not totally ordinary, it’s closer to than any other trajectory they might have been on.

Colby: 52:07

Yeah, that’s fantastic and probably not dissimilar to the stories that come out of the Cotswold community that you were so envious of and I’m tremendously interested in as well. You had the opportunity to go back there quite recently, back to Hurstbridge Farm. What were some key observations or take-homes that you took from that visit?

Adela: 52:35

Well, one of the key observations that um it came about because you know the award ceremony that I was at, where I got that lifetime achievement thing um, the woman who is has managed it for about the last 10 years I think a woman called lena lamandola and a small amount of her team were actually there doing the presentation for that day and she came up to me in one of the breaks and she said hi, and we had a hug and she said I just want you to know that I use your model and I will not let anybody make us change it.

Adela: 53:20

And I said thank you, you know, and of course it’s true, and I saw that when I went up there because it has the same sense of order, the same sense of calm. I mean, it’s a beautiful environment and you can’t take that out of it because it is an element of it. But the more important part of the environment is the people, and there are really good people up there. They’re calm, they know, they’re focused, they understand what they’re doing, they don’t diverge from it. One of the elements of the model that I think is really critical is the recognition that kids who have had these experiences feel uncontained, and the important, and I know Barbara Dogger-Drysdale talks a lot and Winnicott talk a lot about the importance of psychological containment. Yeah.

Adela: 54:35

And, of course, psychological containment comes from physiological containment, because that’s got to come first and that’s what I observed, because that’s something we created up there when we were starting off the pilot.

Colby: 54:53

Contained adults.

Adela: 54:56

Contained adults and initially the kids would say no, you’re going to stop me doing this, you know all that. But we started off really simple by not letting them be alone. Other than you know they’re having a shower, they go to the toilet, all of that, but in the rest of their waking hours we are positively with them and we took that down to walking everywhere with them on the property.

Adela: 55:33

So if a child was in the school and needed something from the house, someone would come and walk up with them to get it and on the way we would have, we didn’t talk about anything. What was? You know? A bird in the tree or whatever, it doesn’t matter, because the containing element is from the presence, the calm presence. And I knew with one boy who had lived his life on the street right. He was 13 and a half when he came in the first cohort and he resisted everything and we developed a series of ways of helping him come into the program. But the day I knew that something had clicked for him was one of the other kids was having his birthday and we were having a barbecue on the deck and he had forgotten to bring the boys present that he’d made in the school. And he came up to me and he said will you walk with me up to the house? I want to get the present. I said inside, I’m going. On the outside I’m going. Of course I will. You know it’s such a massive.

Colby: 57:00

it’s such a massive achievement, I mean for people who are are not like us, who don’t, you know, have the level of familiarity that we do have with these children, they would just think yeah so yeah what, but it’s such such a huge thing, yeah yeah, the the same boy.

Adela: 57:19

I mean I bore you with stories but the same boy was telling me about two months after or three months after that how he thought he was doing really well in the program and was checking that out with me. And I said, yeah, you are, and how he had been impacted by a newer boy who’d come in and who was still quite a lot less regulated and who made him feel unsafe, which was music to my ears because it meant he was feeling safe. And you know, we worked out some things that I was going to do to try and help him feel safer. And I reflected that story to the steering group, which was a group formed of people from the regions of the department, some bureaucrats from head office and some me and some other practitioners in child protection, and I told that story as an example of change and growth.

Adela: 58:29

And the bureaucrat made this comment. He said, oh, it just sounds like a lot of bullshit to me. And I said, well, you know when somebody says something and you think of the right answer two hours later and you go. Well, I actually thought of the right answer in that moment. I was very confused.

Adela: 58:53

It doesn’t happen often. I said, well, but even if you’re right, it’s really high-quality bullshit. Yes, but even if you’re right, it’s really high-quality bullshit. Ha, yes, and it was like, ooh, where do you go with that?

Colby: 59:13

Well, on that, Adela. I mean, I could talk to you for hours. I’m a little bit weird that we’re both at the beginning of our working days. I just Maybe we need to do a part two, if you’re up for it.

Adela: 59:26

I’m always up for it, but.

Colby: 59:28

I think maybe on that’s a nice little segue into what advice would you if you had the opportunity to speak before heads of departments, ministers, again what would you say to them about therapeutic residential care?

Adela: 59:54

I would say well, there’s a bit of a push at the moment in Victoria to, in my opinion, water it down a bit. It’s being badged as enhanced because it is giving therapeutic funding to a greater number of places, which is, of course, an enhancement of sorts. But it’s really only an enhancement if you do it forward rather than take some things away and put some things forward, and at the moment it’s a bit like that. So I’m hoping that that will be different, because the sector is having a lot of input. To that I would say don’t fiddle with what does work. Add to what does work. Add to what does work. Take a deep breath. Spend the money now, because in 10 years’ time, 15 years’ time, is when the judgment will come and when you will see what is the impact of what you didn’t do.

Adela: 1:01:04

And when you will see what is the impact of what you didn’t do. And I said I don’t know. I would say I don’t know what will exactly be the impact, but I can tell you in broad terms what the impact is likely to be. But it’s compelling to try and save resources. But what do we do in terms of the judgment and the decision we make about the lives of people you’ve never met and are not likely to meet? Because that’s what it’s all about. It’s about the quality of life. You know social capital.

Adela: 1:01:48

Yeah, if people are worried, I don’t know what it’s like in South Australia, but in Victoria and other states there’s great consternation about the level of crime and you know juvenile crime and I share that consternation because it’s not good for anybody, including the perpetrators of it. But if people are believing that there is no way that that can be impacted, they’re wrong and that’s what I would say to them. I would say to them you are wrong. There is a way. It may cost you a little bit more in money in the short term, but it will bring you such amazing dividends in the longer term in social capital and the quality of life of people.

Colby: 1:02:46

And I think yeah, just to repeat, probably an earlier point, that any investment in relational capacity impacts behaviours down the line.

Colby: 1:02:57

Absolutely, if you are concerned about behaviours in society. About behaviours in society, the focus needs to be in significant part, developing relational capacity and things that kind of spin off from that, including, you know, felt sense, self-worth. I had a very interesting conversation with Lisaisa etherson in my last interview. Um can facilitate relationships, um facilitate the containment of pervasive shame, uh, these. It’s a lack of um secure relational capacity, that is, and a lack of secure sense of one’s own worth. That really underlies a lot of the social ills. That, yeah, that you can almost, as you say. You can’t predict it with certainty, but you can almost guarantee that there’s a consequence down the line.

Adela: 1:04:00

Yeah, I think a lot in metaphors. Colby and I was having a conversation with someone just the other day about a family and I had this metaphor spring to mind you know, when you’re at a fun fair and you’re in the Dodgem cars, some people know how to drive the Dodgems really well. They’ve had a lot of Dodgem experience. Some people haven’t. I’m one of those, are you? Oh well, good, I’m not. Some people don’t. Now you’ll always notice that the person who’s operating the Dodgem cars will hop on the back of the cars where the people are not driving too well to minimise the impact or the number of impacts and help them steer. But they actually do it. I often think they would make wonderful workers with kids because they do it in a way that doesn’t shame.

Adela: 1:05:08

So, it’s like if I dodge a car then we need more of those dodge-em-car operators because they hop on the back and they get it going in the right direction and if you look at them, they’re laughing and chatting with the people who are hopeless. They’re steering the car. But they’re not laughing at them, they’re with them.

Colby: 1:05:36

That’s a great metaphor. And they’re not on your back, they’re guiding you. They’re guiding you. They’re guiding you. Yeah, I think that’s a great metaphor. Now I’m not sure about your time and commitments today. I usually, at the very end of the podcast, I say well, I’ve asked you a load of questions. Have you got a question you’d like to ask me before we wrap up?

Adela: 1:06:05

Yeah, well, I do, because I’d like to know where you got the idea to do the podcast, because I think it’s such a fabulous idea. What did it emerge from?

Colby: 1:06:19

Probably yeah, there’s probably a number of contributing factors. Probably yeah, there’s probably a number of contributing factors. I have dabbled in making YouTube videos. I’ve done a lot of training myself and face-to-face and online. I think what really motivates this format for me is making connections and having conversations. That matter, I think so. As I said, I’ve tried a few different things, but what I probably like best and what best suits me, I think, in terms of as a as a person practitioner, my personal style is to is to have conversations with people, and that’s, you know, probably largely because the great bulk of the work that I’ve done across the last 30 years has been psychotherapy. Um, in terms of, you know the people that I’m inviting on, there is a little bit of an agenda between Patrick and I, because I think that there is a need, because residential care has often, in the child and youth sector, has a bad reputation.

Colby: 1:07:41

Yes, it does it certainly has a terrible reputation here in South Australia amongst practitioners, I would add and I think decision-makers have even tried to go so far as eliminating residential care, and the reality is that that will never happen. We will always need residential care. So we have to turn our mind to how do we make it better, how do we address the concerns that people have, how do we address even the myths that exist around therapeutic residential care. So the agenda is a bit. There is a bit of an agenda to have people on the podcast who can contribute to a different narrative around therapeutic residential care. Right.

Colby: 1:08:36

And then, lastly, I think I really want to provide a space where people who have really significant knowledge and expertise and I think the expertise that you get on the work, in the work, shouldn’t be denigrated in any way. It should be elevated. It should be elevated those who’ve worked in the sector for years, decades. I don’t know anyone who’s worked in the sector longer than you, adela.

Adela: 1:09:10

No, I think I’m a record breaker.

Colby: 1:09:18

Yeah, and I’m the longest-serving clinical psychologist in the sector here in South Australia, just working in the sector. Yeah, yeah, and I’m only at 30 years, so I’m I’m 22 years behind you, um, but I think I do think that, um, I have a great interest in speaking to people who have tremendous experience and knowledge to share, who don’t necessarily, who don’t necessarily get the same attention from those who you know, who cherry pick to elevate, I guess. So I’m trying to elevate a much broader cross-section of people.

Adela: 1:09:54

Yeah, well, that’s great. That’s really good, Because, as you say, it’s a poorly understood modality of care. I think I came into contact with a particular concept recently. It’s called the Dunning-Kruger principle or the Dunning-Kruger effect one of them and basically it’s a cognitive bias whereby you don’t know what you don’t know.

Adela: 1:10:37

And if you don’t know what you don’t know, how can you make good decisions about it? Hmm, I really like the Dunning-Kruger effect. Well, I don’t like it, but you know, I like the conceptualisation of it. I’ve got no idea where it comes from. I’ll have to research it a bit, but it is true. If you don’t know what you don’t know, you’re going to make decisions that don’t necessarily prosper anyone. Well, that’s right, and I think that is the case often in relation to bureaucratic systems. Yes, not putting bureaucrats down. They have a value, but they don’t know what they don’t know.

Colby: 1:11:26

No, and they need to hear from people who do know. Yeah. Yeah, exactly so. Thank you very much, adela, for being so gracious as to appear on this fledgling podcast. I’ve enjoyed it.

Colby: 1:11:41

There’s so much more. I would like to ask you, like just just to flag a few, I I’d love to speak to you more about that transition from like a um, a training center, but it was called something different back in the 70s where train, that training, that transition from what had gone on before though the girls who had been young offenders or had lacked moral something or other, They’d been in moral danger.

Colby: 1:12:10

Yeah, in moral danger into something therapeutic, which, of course, is what happened with the Cotswold community and likely many others. The Cotswold community had started out as a reformatory and then Richard Balburnie had turned it into a therapeutic community. So I’d love to yeah, I would have loved to have asked you a bit more about that, and also your model and how that’s been applied in other.

Colby: 1:12:40

I think you said 11 other programs. Yeah, 12 others. So look until another time. Thank you very much from me and from our listeners, and look forward to speaking to you again another time.

Adela: 1:12:54

Great pleasure. Thank you very much, Colby.

Reunifying 1,200 Children: The Connecting Families Story with Sally Rhodes

Family Preservation Through Trauma Informed Practice

Family reunification is one of the most challenging yet rewarding areas of child protection work. In this powerful conversation between Colby Pearce and Sally Rhodes, we gain insight into how one practitioner’s passion for keeping families together has led to the successful reunification of over 1,200 children with their families over two decades.

Sally Rhodes’ journey into family preservation work began in her childhood, influenced by her father’s stance against injustice and her early exposure to children living in institutional care. This formative experience sparked a lifelong commitment to questioning why children were separated from their families and exploring better alternatives. Her professional path took her from residential care in 1985 to intensive family preservation services, eventually leading to the establishment of Connecting Families in 2004 – now South Australia’s largest reunification service.

What makes Connecting Families so successful? Sally emphasises the importance of a team aligned in values, approach and commitment to social justice. Unlike competitive tendering processes that disrupt continuity of care, Connecting Families has built a stable team of practitioners who have worked together for decades, creating a collective wisdom that grows over time. This consistency allows them to develop deep expertise and speak with an authoritative voice when advocating for families within the child protection system.

One of the most fascinating aspects of the conversation centres on how practitioners approach cases involving denied child abuse, particularly unexplained injuries to infants. Traditional child protection approaches often demand admissions as prerequisites for reunification, creating a significant barrier when shame, fear of criminal charges, and potential social ostracism make such admissions extremely difficult. Through her Churchill Fellowship, Sally studied the Resolutions Approach developed in the UK, which offers an alternative pathway focused on building safety without necessarily requiring full admissions.

The parallel between team dynamics and therapeutic relationships with families emerges as a powerful theme. Just as practitioners create psychological safety for vulnerable families to engage meaningfully in change processes, teams need to establish the same conditions for themselves to navigate the challenging terrain of child protection work. This secure base allows practitioners to be vulnerable, make mistakes, challenge each other’s thinking, and ultimately provide better support to families.

Perhaps the most profound insight from Sally’s decades of experience is the long-lasting impact of child protection decisions. “Think very, very carefully about what you write, what you decide, because it has consequences,” she advises, acknowledging that with greater knowledge and experience, she would now make different decisions in some past cases. This humility and willingness to evolve one’s thinking over time reflects the continuous learning journey that characterises effective practice in this complex field.

For those working in child protection, family preservation, or any helping profession, this conversation offers valuable reflections on creating practice environments that balance rigour with compassion, accountability with understanding, and ultimately prioritise keeping families safely together whenever possible.

Listen here:

Watch here:

About Sally

Sally has a Master of Social Work, and a Graduate Diploma in Family Therapy.

Sally, commenced working in residential care in 1985, then followed her passion for strengthening families through working intensively in family preservation services.

In 2004 Sally established Connecting Families, a therapeutic Reunification and Family Preservation service, which has grown to 17 practitioners.

Sally is trained in Narrative Therapy, Marte Meo, Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy, the Neurosequential Model of Therapeutics, and Signs of Safety.

Sally was awarded a Churchill Fellowship to work in the UK with the Resolutions Approach – Working with Denied Child Abuse.

Connecting Families is now the largest Reunification Service is South Australia and, together the team has safely reunified over 1200 children, and prevented the removal of many more.

In Connecting Families, Sally has selected practitioners who share her commitment to social justice and human rights, and ethically driven practice.

Sally provides training and consultation to Government and Non-Government organisations and remains a strong advocate for vulnerable families.

Sally has been integral in leading the development of a Partnering for Safety approach to child protection through training and consulting, and is passionate about family led decision making and bringing the child’s voice into child protection work.

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Adriana Dias

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Lighthouse Foundation

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Transcript:

Sally: 0:01

I think I always knew this, but I know it far more powerfully now, is that the decisions that we make, the things that we write, the recommendations that we make about families have long-lasting impact. So, therefore, think very, very carefully about what you write, what you decide, because it has consequences, and I know that to be so true now that I probably didn’t know as strongly back then.

Colby: 0:40

Hi and welcome to the Secure Start podcast. Hi and welcome to the Secure Start podcast. I’m Colby Pearce, and joining me for this episode is a highly respected practitioner in my home jurisdiction. Before I introduce my guests, I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land that we are meeting on the Kaurna people, and the continuing connection they and other Aboriginal people feel to land, waters, culture and community. I’d also like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging. So my guest for this episode is Sally Rhodes. Welcome Sally, thanks Colby. Welcome Sally, thanks Colby. So Sally is, as I said, a practitioner in my home jurisdiction here and we’re both used to paying our respects to the traditional custodians of the lands we meet on. So, for those who may be listening or watching overseas, this is a customary paying of respect to those traditional owners.

Colby: 1:56

Now Sally has a Master of Social Work and a Graduate Diploma in Family Therapy. Sally commenced working in residential care in 1985, then followed her passion for strengthening families through working intensively in family preservation services. In 2004, sally established Connecting Families, a therapeutic reunification and family preservation service, which has grown to 17 practitioners. Sally is trained in narrative therapy, matrimony, dyadic, developmental psychotherapy, the neuro-sequential model of therapeutics and signs of safety. Sally was awarded a Churchill Fellowship to work in the UK with the resolutions approach working with denied child abuse. Connecting Families is now the largest reunification service in South Australia and together the team has safely reunified over 1,200 children and prevented the removal of many more. In Connecting Families, sally has selected practitioners who share her commitment to social justice and human rights and ethically driven practice. Sally provides training and consultation to government and non-government organisations and remains a strong advocate for vulnerable families. Sally has been integral in leading the development of a partnering for safety approach to child protection through training and consulting, and is passionate about family-led decision-making and bringing the child’s voice into child protection work.

Colby: 3:38

Wow, there was a lot there, sally. Obviously I’m going to need the editor, all right. Obviously I’m going to be the editor, all right. So, sally, um, I guess, uh, I just really want, um, for our listeners to hear more about you, um, as a person and also as a professional. So my first question to you is how did you come to this field of endeavor?

Sally: 4:04

yeah, well, you know I I had cause to think about this last year when we were celebrating 20 years of connecting families, and I actually really stopped and thought about how did I get here, really? And, um, because nothing’s ever by accident, is it, you know? And so I started to think about my childhood and where I grew up and what my influences were. And you know, it occurred to me that my dad was a really big influence in my life in terms of thinking about injustice and standing up for the oppressed. He always stood up for me, you know, which was something that was. I was a bit of a naughty kid, so you know, I used to get in trouble at school a lot and he always wanted to know.

Sally: 4:55

You know my side of the story, which was refreshing and not normal back then, like you know, I’m talking the late 60s, early 70s, and also mum and dad volunteered at a children’s home. It was run by nuns and there were homes it was about four. My memory was that there were like four homes on this property and they had 10 kids each in them and mum and dad would go there on weekends, like rostered on, to support the nuns looking after the kids. So I would tag along. And it just struck me that this was a really unusual situation for children not to be living with their families, and I think that that was my first exposure to it and I was exposed to it for a long time, you know, over three or four years probably that mum and dad went there, that I would go with them, and I knew these kids too. I went to school with a lot of them, so that was that. And then I and I think that sparked something in me that I wanted to do. So I didn’t know what it was, and then I didn’t go straight into social work, but I knew that that’s what I wanted to do. But I went and did nursing first, which I hated, and I left very quickly. And then I went and studied and I found my way.

Sally: 6:24

So this was in northern New South Wales, so not the state that we, you know we currently are in now. This was in a little town called Grafton, but then I moved over here to South Australia in 1985 and I got a job with the Department for Community Welfare, as it was known then, in um, residential care and um. I was 22 and I just thought at that point. I was too young to do sort of generic social work. I, you know, and I wanted to work with young people. That felt the right thing to do. So I, I was there and I stayed in residential care for eight years and I think that experience really fuelled again.

Sally: 7:13

This sort of kids just need not be in these situations, you know. If they can’t, if they, you know, we really should be working to try to keep children at home. So a family preservation service in South Australia started in 1993. That was the first one called Keeping Families Together, and I won a position in that and I stayed in doing that from 1993 to 2004 in various different roles but all like all working intensively with families and either in family preservation or reunification. And then the agency that I worked for, anglicare, lost the tender to continue doing that work and I was approached to set up on my own well, set up to work with the families that had been in our service, because the agency who won them that contract to carry on the work, for whatever reason, didn’t set up and so, fortuitously, these sort of families fell into my lap and and that’s how it started in terms of connecting families, um, just yeah, and then, and that’s all I’ve ever wanted to do. Really, it’s a long-winded answer to your question.

Colby: 8:42

Colby, no, not long-winded, but very interesting. It really goes to show, I guess, that when you, you know how influential our experience is growing up, our experiences in childhood, are in terms of the future course of our life. Yeah, in fact, research that I can remember hearing about a long time ago about who enters the helping profession who enters the helping profession, so to speak, tend to be people who have been in some sort of caring role as they’ve been growing up. Yeah, yeah, as they’ve been growing up.

Colby: 9:27

Yeah, yeah and yeah. I think that rings true not only for myself, but a lot of people I’ve spoken to about this and, interestingly, just to pick up another point that you made in there is that the impact that residential care had on you and on practice and a sneak peek into another podcast episode is that I’ll be speaking to someone who ran a residential care home in the UK for a very long time and then moved across to run the UK’s first therapeutic fostering service, so our listeners can listen out for that as well. So, just moving on, you’ve talked about your dad as being a significant personal influence on you growing up and you’ve probably also referred to your observations of the children and the environment that they were living on as major influences environment that they were living on as major influencers but who were your professional major professional influencers?

Sally: 10:51

would you say, yeah, look, many and varied really. But you know, and I guess I didn’t really, I suppose I did, but I can’t even remember who they might have been, you know, but you know, but certainly when I came to um, a therapist well, psychologist, called Alan Jenkins, um, his partner, maxine Joy, Rob Hall, a social worker, um, these were locally based, Adelaide, um, but I think world renowned really in their craft and their expertise, so, and Alan used to come to our team meetings when I worked in keeping families together and consult with us and I just used to sit there in awe, really, so he was a really big influence to me. And of course, you know Michael White and the whole narrative therapy, dulwich Centre, in terms of, you know, I, and to think more deeply about that, I suppose you know, and so they were a big event. And then, over the years, people like Dan Hughes, bruce Perry, you know yourself, colby, in terms of your writings around attachment and the science of safety, people Like you know, all of that has influenced me and I’ve been.

Sally: 12:58

You know that all of those people that I’ve named, their work and their way of thinking just resonated with my way of thinking and it helped me, you know, move forward in being able to help families, have that breadth of sort of knowledge and expertise, I suppose, to be able to think come to, you know, talk with people with a whole lot of different things in your head and frameworks to operate from.

Colby: 13:27

Yeah, so quite a diverse group there. Yeah, I think you know, thinking about my own professional journey and the work of Michael White and others and Alan and the Dulwich Centre, who I was probably exposed to at a similar time to you when I was a developing practitioner, I think a lot of what I heard from them resonates more and more with me as I move on with my life and career. Certainly the stories that we tell about ourselves I think are are very powerful in the way in which we approach life and relationships.

Sally: 14:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that’s true actually, in terms of for me. You know, probably at the time I didn’t realise how influential they were and that they were and how privileged I was to have them so accessible. You know they’re in my hometown. You know I’ve got video of Michael White interviewing me.

Colby: 14:50

You know it’s precious now to look back on that and yeah, and maybe we need to be, you know, maybe we need to have practised, I guess, for a period of time to be able to join the dots up. I guess, for a period of time to be able to join the dots up, I guess, in a sense, around those early influences and the impact that they’ve had on us and our professional journey and the way in which we approach our professional and personal life. Yeah, it’s very interesting. Our professional and personal life. Yeah, it’s very interesting. I’m also aware, and I mentioned to you, mentioned in the intro that you did do a Churchill Fellowship in the UK and I know a little bit about what a Churchill Fellowship is. But I wonder if you would mind just describing it, what a Churchill fellowship is and what it was like completing it, who you did it with or who you, yeah, work with and how it’s influenced your practice going from there yeah.

Sally: 16:03

So the Churchill Fellowship was actually set up by Winston Churchill really for um, you know, australians to have the experience, to be able to go abroad, um, you know, to um to expand their skills and knowledge in a specific area that they weren’t able to get in in Australia. You know, like, so this was the original sort of thinking around it and that you could then bring back that skill and knowledge to better the community. So that was sort of the broad and I think that still holds true. However, you know, with the modern technology these days you really don’t have to travel. You know you can do it, but you know they’re still offered.

Sally: 16:51

So I, when actually talking about influences, there’s some other people who were very influential in my life before I did the Churchill, and they were the John Gumbelton, colin Luger, susie Essex John Gumbelton, colin Luger, susie Essex three UK social workers, therapists, who worked for the NSPCC Is that right? Yeah, and they started writing about the resolutions approach, which is a way of working with families where there’s denial around and particularly around injury, unexplained injury to infants. So those very, you know, polarising as well as perplexing cases where you’ve got a baby that’s got injury and parents who basically say they don’t know how it happened, and in a medical profession saying, well, this is how we think it happened. And and so you know they become very stuck cases that you know and and I was coming across them in my, in my work of um you know families with with seemingly no other kind of factors that would have caused concern to anybody but a baby that had these unexplained injuries, and so you ended up with a situation that either the children just didn’t go home because of this stuckness around the acknowledgement or they did go home because people just gave up and put them home and so no work was ever done and I didn’t think either of those scenarios were good, basically.

Sally: 18:31

So I started looking for um you know any any ways of working around this really and um, it came across these guys, um and made contact with them in the uk, um by email and phone, and um started having some consultation with colin luger, one of them um, and then the idea of applying for churchill came up. So I did and it’s quite a daunting process really. You know it’s um. They give away about a hundred nationally a year, but in south austral I think the year I went there were nine given away and you have to, you know, put in an application. It has to be very succinct, to you know, to basically explain to a group of people not from this profession. You know a wide range of people making decisions about who gets them and then go to it, get to an interview process, which is, you know, 20 people. There was sitting around a big boardroom table and coming in and actually doing a presentation and then getting questions. Anyway, I was lucky enough to get one. I think it was so interesting.

Colby: 19:44

You know, I think it is interesting, you know.

Sally: 19:46

I think it really piqued the interest of the people who were making that selection. So I went to the UK. I went to Bristol, which is where Colin and John live. Colin has sadly passed away. He passed away in 2015. But you know, obviously when I went he was still alive. But you know, obviously when I went he was still alive and I spent six weeks there in the UK with them doing, you know, travelling all around England because even though they were based in the UK, their referrals came from all different parts of the UK so we would travel to meet with family.

Sally: 20:25

So I watched them, I talked to them, I talked to families about their experiences, I interviewed judges, um, children’s solicitor, uh. I met with some other academics I met with. I met peter dale, who’s another influencer, mel, is people remember now peter dale? Um, he wrote a book called fine. Who’s another influencer? I mean, people don’t remember now Peter Dale? He wrote a book called Fine Judgments. He’s another UK social worker, psychiatric social worker, and yeah. And then I came back, I had to write a report about that for the trust and I went and met with the youth court here in South Australia to talk about it because really if I could get the court understanding it, that was going to help. You know, I did presentations to the department about it and I think it has it influenced me. You know, in a sense around that there were people on the other side of the world thinking exactly the same way that I do.

Sally: 21:36

You know, I think there was something really heartening and a sense of security about that you know, that these issues were were happening everywhere and that, um, that there were people who were turning their mind to. How can we actually help these families stay together, but in a safe in? In a safe way, um, and you know they are the trickiest cases because people do take such a stand about we need to know. We need to know what happened. If we don’t know what happened, how can we ever make this safe? So there’s a I’ve done a lot of talking with people over the years around trying to get them to think about that in a different way and why people wouldn’t talk about it. You know the sense of shame, all of the disincentives to to talk about how an infant got injured. You know the criminal charges, loss of friends, family, whole range of things. You know.

Sally: 22:48

So, yeah, and as far as I know, we are probably the only service that provides resolutions way of working, certainly in South Australia, if not across Australia. I haven’t come across anybody else. So it’s a niche and I think that nicheness you know that, you know helped in terms of gaining reputation across the sector around. You know, here’s some people who will actually work with these kind of families, but rigorously, it’s not fluffy work in any sense. Yeah, and so Colin and John continued to be Colin, particularly up until his untimely passing like he was very unexpected and in terms of him getting sick, that was. But he, I continued to consult with him up until then, and then John for a little while after that as well, and I’m still in touch with John. He’s retired, yeah, yeah, they were great, great influences really.

Colby: 24:09

Yeah, they are difficult cases.

Sally: 24:11

Yeah.

Colby: 24:12

From my own work. While you’re talking, I’m immediately thinking of a couple of cases, one in particular that I became involved in or was asked to become involved in very early in my career and, similarly to you, I was aware that local child protection authorities, the emphasis that they placed on admissions and admissions as being a precursor to looking at the possibility of reunification or reunifying, and I remember even then being very much aware of or thinking a lot about all the impediments to making those admissions and whether, as you say, whether there is actually another way that can ensure safety but doesn’t rely on an admission.

Sally: 25:27

Yeah.

Colby: 25:29

And I think there are ways to go about doing that, and you referenced one of those models or approaches.

Sally: 25:41

Yeah, I think it’s very much a way. I mean they are approaches, but it’s very much a way of thinking rather than a way of doing. In a way, you know there are certain things, steps through the process, but it is. You can’t actually do the work if you don’t sort of think about this in. You know it’s about being able to hold a degree of uncertainty and not knowing.

Sally: 26:05

But, also, you know suspending doubt, like all of these sort of principles of the model really around. You know thinking about denial, like when I’ve done some training on this. You know I remember talking to a bunch of supervisors when I first came back and I said to them I want you to turn to the person next to you and tell them the thing that you are most ashamed of in your life. They all just stood there and stared at me. You know, like I was mad. But you know the point I was trying to make was that’s what you’re asking families to do.

Sally: 26:42

You’re asking them if we take on that belief that, yes, they’ve they’ve unintentionally caused some injury to their child that they then have become aware of. And then you’re asked and they’re so deeply ashamed of that. You know that you’re asking them to tell you a pillar of power in their life what you did. And I just think it’s unless you get alongside of people and approach them with empathy and compassion, in a non-judgmental stance, that’s going to shrink shame and you may get some partial acknowledgement. You certainly get people motivated to make sure that what happened will never happen again, and that’s all we want to do is just to make sure future harm doesn’t occur.

Colby: 27:40

Yeah, I think the shame element is a powerful impediment and the regulation of that shame is a powerful way forward.Sally: 27:50

Yeah.

Colby: 27:51

And I remember something that well. You said something a little bit earlier where you were saying that not only the making of the admission means that not only do child protection authorities know about what happened, but it comes out one way or another that family and friends may also find out more about that. And I’ve done a similar activity when I’ve done training in the youth justice area and I had practitioners come one by one in and disclose similarly to me an act that they were it’s going back a few years ago now, but it was an act that they were ashamed of doing and it may well have also had an offending element to it, and they had to disclose it to me one by one and they had a choice about whether they come in and do that or not. Everyone did it, but everyone seemed to be quite uncomfortable about it. I will note that I was never asked back in service.

Colby: 29:04

I had met one of the person in subsequent training that I also delivered in the youth court, but I was never asked back. And I think it’s when we expect families to make admissions and the whole movement forward depends upon it. They’re not just making admissions to child protection authorities, they’re making admissions, potentially, to their family and friends as well, as you say. So that little activity that you did and that I did and that I did, as uncomfortable as it was, probably still doesn’t really get at what it’s like to make admissions in child protection processes. Because, to make it similar, we would broadcast what was disclosed to the group at least, and to family and friends.

Colby: 30:10

And so, yeah, there are very powerful disincentives to make admissions. And, yeah, I always thought that. I always think that nobody does anything for no reason, and I’ve always applied that in my practice with children, or for as long as I can remember, and I think that in trauma-informed practice it’s all about responding to the reason, and I think, similarly, it is possible to navigate a way forward by responding therapeutically to the reasons for a child to be hurt, without necessarily hanging it all on an ambition.

Sally: 31:04

Yeah, hanging it all on an ambition, yeah, and also, you know, there’s this big focus on acknowledgement and admission or whatever. And you know, and I guess my way of thinking after years and years of working with families in this area, is that acknowledgement of its own doesn’t necessarily bring about safety. You know, people can acknowledge that they’ve done something or they’ve behaved in a particular way.

Colby: 31:31

It doesn’t mean they’re not going to do it again.

Sally: 31:33

So you know it’s not enough, and I think that’s what certainly the you know the science of safety model, you know the principles and practices of that model, and that approach got me really thinking about that as well that you have to be actively demonstrating a change or doing something differently over a period of time. It’s not enough to say oh yeah, you know, yeah, you know.

Colby: 32:02

There seems to be a belief that an omission is an acknowledgement of a preparedness to change. Yeah, and it may be the case in some instances, but my thinking about it is that the admission is probably not the main incentive to change. Rather, it’s the therapeutic relationship that we develop with the parent-client and our endeavours to regulate shame and regulate them being closed off and rather to opening them to meaningful conversations and what follows from that as being probably the what we should be putting most emphasis on as a starting point.

Sally: 33:16

Yeah.

Colby: 33:17

Parents engaging with the process rather than parents making an acknowledgement. Yeah, yeah.

Sally: 33:26

Yes, certainly, seeing, you know, and because I think that, um, the focus on you know you must acknowledge, and this is not necessarily even in denied childhood, just in anything really you must acknowledge, you know this, or you must acknowledge the harm that you’ve caused your child, or you must you know the the way that that the statutory organisations come to try to get people to do that is just not therapeutic in any way.

Sally: 33:51

It’s very shaming and, you know, potentially quite frightening really for people because they don’t know the consequences of if they do acknowledge you know. So, yeah, I agree, and I think it’s, you know, when you know, thinking about this work, I mean I don’t think I would have known this 30 years ago. You know this has been a process for me also around, just, you know, I remember way back there was a book written by Maluccio and Pine which is around reunification and because people just talk about the stages, you know the steps and the thing, and it’s not like that. You know it’s because of this what we’re just talking about now. You know it’s really around understanding the complexities of people’s lives and experiences and building relationships so that they can navigate their way through that, to come out of that you know in a way that they can demonstrate to people that I A want to be a safe parent and I can be.

Colby: 35:08

I A want to be a safe parent and I can be. Yeah, shame is such a destructive or can be such a destructive emotion, and a process that deepens shame works against a goal of a safe reunification between the child and their parents. Yeah, yeah, I feel like we could talk about it for a long time. There’s some other things I wanted to ask you, though. I wanted you to just you’ve given a little bit of an intro to how Connecting Families came about, but perhaps you can tell me a little bit more, or tell us, the audience as well, a little bit more about the work of connecting families, and you mentioned 1,200 safe reunifications since 2004. What do you think? What are the ingredients for both the success of connecting families and reunification work more generally?

Sally: 36:12

Yeah, I mean that’s interesting, isn’t it too? Because, you know, connecting families in 2004 was me, so, and then by 2006 there were three of us. But the three of us were so Deb Pickering and Sarah Gray, whom I worked with in Anglicare in reunification and family press services. So they were. We’d already had existing relationships and they had the same values and attitudes and beliefs that I do. And because I was just getting inundated with referrals, I just couldn’t and you know what it’s like in private practice, you just never say no to anything so I needed to bring people on to help with that, and so that’s kind of what happened. Over a period of time, more and more people came on board that I had selected based on my previous working relationships with them, knowing what their attitudes and values were to sort of over the time.

Sally: 37:17

So, mac Davis another person from you know when I was in Anglicare, tracy Laddams, who I worked with in residential care. So Tracy and I have been now have a 40-year-long working relationship. Wow, it’s amazing to think about, really. Tracy was in keeping families together as well and then connecting families. And Mac, you know, 30 years, deb, 30 years We’ve been working together for a really long time. The core group of connecting families that has now expanded, expanded 17 in that bio since then with one. One person has left, so it’s 16, um, and they are people that I have come across in my career, um, where, where we have, we’ve gelled and I’ve known that they approach the work the same way that I do Others.

Sally: 38:15

Yeah, so you know, we’ve got a large team now with three men and we did have three Aboriginal practitioners.

Sally: 38:23

We now only have two and I think the reason why we’ve been so successful in the work is because we are a collective voice. You know, when I stop to think about it there’s you know it’s hard work. You know this, colby, you know it’s really hard work and often we are butting heads with the statutory agency, we are butting heads with the court, we’re butting heads with everybody because we might approach it differently and have a different view. And I think, with us being having so many people in the team and we all approach the work in the same way and think about families and that children ought to be with their families, if that’s at all possible and if not, with very close, enduring connection to family, that having many of us speaking that I don’t know what it is, but it just brings about a sense of safety in the team to be able to do that and a sense that you know we’ve got each other’s backs we can support each other and to continue to do the work.

Sally: 39:47

Support each other and to continue to do the work.

Sally: 39:49

So I think you know I despair at competitive I don’t know what happens in other parts of the world, but competitive tendering processes where agencies win a tender to provide a service for three years and then they put it out again and then someone else might win it.

Sally: 40:05

So no one develops long-term practice, wisdom, you know long term, and that you have people that are really passionate about this work. It’s not just a job, it’s not, it’s actually a career, it’s a. So I think that’s what I’ve been able to gather together and when I think about 21 years now, almost, that we’ve been going as connecting families you know that’s a long time for one service and I don’t see it ending anytime soon and so that collective wisdom just grows and grows and grows. And I think that’s why we are successful, because A the values and the attitudes and the beliefs, but also the skill set that people develop over time and then can pass on to each other is immeasurable. I don’t know how you measure that, I don’t know how you replicate it, and you know I feel really lucky to have this group of people around me.

Colby: 41:11

So I think, that?

Sally: 41:11

yeah, that’s why.

Colby: 41:13

I think, yeah, yeah, thank you for that. I think what you’re what I’m hearing you say is the importance of a team that is aligned in their approach to practice and speaks with a consistent voice, and I think there is something very psychologically safe about teams where people are all on the same page and aligned in their practice. People are all on the same page and aligned in their practice. I think, you know, in some respects we celebrate diversity, but also I think we need to acknowledge that teams work well in this kind of way of being aligned and supportive of each other and speaking with a collective voice. I think the collective voice provides is authoritative in the work that we do, and I think you mentioned I go back to one of your responses about the Churchill Fellowship we think about.

Colby: 42:36

We’ve talked a little bit about in our backwards and forwards conversation here, about things that are really powerful in, you know, factors in human behavior and and um, the way in which people approach life and relationships. We thought a bit about the role and importance of shame, um, but also validation. You know, the, the, the experience that, um, that we’re not just the only one thinking and working in this way, that our thoughts and beliefs and approach are valid, are acceptable, are worthy. These are very powerful conditions, I think, in which to, in our shared areas of endeavour, approach the work with as much psychological safety as we can muster to protect ourselves, because it is a difficult area of endeavour and when you’re working over a long period of time, I don’t think you can do it. I don’t think you can do it without depleting yourself drastically if you don’t have a team and peers who, as you say, have got your back but who also believe in what you believe in.

Sally: 44:12

Yeah, yeah, and I think also it can challenge you, you know, because you know I often think about, you know, the work of Eileen Munro and you know her talking about, you know the sort of I can’t remember the actual quote, but the most protective thing is to admit that you might have got it wrong. And I think, and I in child protection work, you know, and I think that having a team around where we can talk about, you know, you can get different perspectives on things. You can be going. You know, am I missing something here? You know, I think that having a collective voice is not just about being, you know, gee, we’re all right, and that’s not what I mean, and it’s really more around saying we want to come at things with rigour. You know, we want to make sure we’re doing things properly and right and thoroughly, and I think when you’re on your own you can lose that objectivity. You know you, basically it’s good to, it’s healthy to have people around to sort of go. Yeah, I’m not quite sure about that.

Colby: 45:31

So we do a lot of co-working in this as well.

Sally: 45:33

A lot of the team, you know, will work with two practitioners. Sometimes we might have a family where they might end up with five of the team because someone’s doing Marta Mayo, someone’s doing Circular Security of the team, because someone’s doing mud and mayo, someone’s doing circular security, tracy might be doing, you know, a relapse prevention plan around substance misuse. So they’re seen by a lot of people in the team and we don’t always agree about where the families are on their and the progress that they’re making, and I think that’s really healthy.

Colby: 46:07

It is. I agree, and I guess most people who talk about teams, I would anticipate talk about the importance of having diversity of background and diversity of beliefs and opinions. And yet I would say that those things are fantastic where there is a secure base within the team. And the secure base is one that regulates shame or is non-shaming. The secure base is one where we feel of togetherness and connection and belonging. And in another podcast shout out to Lynn Pateman, her Success is Never Accidental podcast I talked about how teams are very functional. Teams are very much like an attachment relationship and I think, in order to explore other ideas, to take risks, to explore other ideas to take risks carefully managed risks, to make mistakes, own up to them, learn from them, move on from them you need the security that we’re talking about, the psychological safety that we’re talking about yeah, yeah safety that we’re talking about, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sally: 47:48

I think the um, the preparedness to be vulnerable and know that you can be vulnerable in that space and people will will just um, hold you really in that and and for me it’s very much a parallel process about what we’re trying to do with families is to is to support them to be vulnerable, um, but to feel that that there’s safety in doing that. So, and there’s.

Colby: 48:18

That’s very much aligned with what a, what a an attachment relationship is. Yeah, looks like what attack. What we’re talking about with attachment Attachment is about a relationship in which the person can be vulnerable or is vulnerable and can orient to someone who is able to support them, protect them, respond to their needs and create a situation and a circumstance where the person can grow.

Sally: 48:56

Yeah.

Colby: 49:01

So just moving on, because it’s been a long chat already, although I’m aware that there are podcasts out there that run to three hours.Sally: 49:10

Oh, my goodness yeah.

Colby: 49:13

But I wanted to ask you what advice you would give to your younger self starting out in your professional journey now and you’ve made some reference to it, but perhaps if you could just expand upon that- yeah, um, look, lots of things, probably, colby.

Sally: 49:35

Yeah, look, I feel like I have touched on something, you know, certainly I don’t think I ever thought that I knew everything back then anyway, but I but I would certainly be saying to myself, you know, you’re going to learn a lot along the way. Um, you know that this is, this is continuous learning and continuous growth, and in fact, you’re going to change your mind about things as well, and that’s okay, you know, because you know, some of our ideas are shaped and we haven’t really had enough time to actually think about. Really, really Do I really think that you know? So I think that, and I know we had talked about this once before, but I? I that there’s not a hierarchy of knowledge.

Sally: 50:23

I think, when I was a younger social worker, starting out and this is no offense to psychologists, you know, I think you know, but you know, there was, there was always this thing, and there still is, that psychologists trump social workers in terms of, or then you know, psychiatrists trump psychologists and doctors are somehow the medical profession, are revered and they can never get it wrong. I don’t hold that to be true anymore and that’s not to be disrespectful about any of those professions. I, you know, have respect for all of them, but I have respect for my own and I have respect for the knowledges and wisdom that comes with people who have practised things for a very long time. So I don’t feel so. I think what I would say to my younger self is don’t be intimidated by those other knowledges. They’re valid and they’re, but they’re not the only way of thinking about things, and your way is just as valid.

Colby: 51:35

You know I probably hold.

Sally: 51:37

You know, these days I hold great respect for people, you know, like yourself, like other practitioners, who have stuck it out and have an immense amount of knowledge and wisdom. And you know and I see people in the Department for Child Protection here that have been there for, you know, 30, 35 years and doing a hard job, and I respect them that they’ve stayed there and done that and they have a lot of knowledge. You know so that, and you know it’s okay to make a mistake.

Colby: 52:22

What I really liked. I liked all of that answer, but I think the acknowledgement that you will change your mind, and I think two things about long careers. One is that you’re never going to have the same view. I think or at least it’s healthy to not have the same view a year down the track, five years down the track, 10 years down the track than you have right now. Five years down the track, 10 years down the track than you have right now. You need to be open to that and prepared to accept that with experience and observation, you are going to change your thinking and opinions about things unless you have a very rigid adherence to what you and who would? Who would argue that, uh, it is healthy to maintain a rigid adherence to what you knew when you were fresh out of university or first in this, I don’t know that anyone would um would do that.

Sally: 53:32

Wouldn’t we call that?

Colby: 53:33

stuckness. Yes, you know similarly and I have changed my position on things across a long career, in particular, one area that has been particularly influential with me, for me, two areas actually. One is working very closely with families that are on the cusp of statutory intervention and the validity and importance of intervening in those circumstances where you know it’s 50-50 as to whether statutory authorities should and could get involved. The other area that has been very influential for me is working with care leavers and, in particular, seeing care leavers that I and, in particular, seeing care leavers that I knew as children taken into care. So both of those areas have been very influential in my position.

Sally: 54:46

Yeah.

‘Colby: 54:47

As I’m sure it is with others.

Sally: 54:49

Yeah, yeah, we’ve got a family at the moment in the service. That is for Mac, one of the workers in the team.

Colby: 54:58

fourth generation the oldest of the family. Yeah, yeah.

Sally: 55:05

So you know the dad was an injured infant actually back when, and so we worked with his parents. I was the manager of the team at that point. This is back in anglicare days and then mac had worked with the. This dad’s father was in residential care and then, so mac had met the great well I don’t know, we were just like, yeah, well we’ve been.

Sally: 55:36

We’ve been at this for too long, we’ve been getting to this, but, you know, it was really interesting because this dad, you know, when Mac realised that you know he was who he was, you know we talked about it and I said you have to tell him, you have to let him know that you knew him as a baby, and which he did, and um, and that worked. You know that that was fantastic because they, you know, um, they’ve formed a really close connection actually now and um, and this dad has successfully had his three children returned to his care and is doing really well, you know, and I think that longevity of you know of him, knowing that Mac knew his story, was very helpful, you know. So, whilst it was sad, it was also really it was fortuitous that Mac was the one that you know coincidentally picked it up.

Sally: 56:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I do think that those knowing what’s up, you know, I think that’s the other thing, colby, that I think I, I think I always knew this, but I know it far more powerfully now is that the decisions that we make, the the, the things that we write, the recommendation recommendations that we make about families, have long-lasting impact. So, therefore, think very, very carefully about what you write, what you decide, because it you know it has consequences, and I know that to be so true now that I probably didn’t know as strongly back then. Yeah, because you know, I even think back to families where we recommended that children go into long-term care. That would I do the same now? Probably not, you know, even though they weren’t fantastic home situations, they were better than what got provided in the long run. So I’d probably go back and undo some of the things that I If we could, if I could.

Sally: 58:07

Based on the knowledge that I had at that time, I was probably doing what I felt was the right thing.

Colby: 58:13

Yeah, yeah, similarly, sally. That’s, I think, a very powerful and great place to bring our conversation to a close. Thank you very much for agreeing to be on my podcast, and maybe in the future we might get you back to talk a little bit more about some of this and similar.

Sally: 58:40

No, that would be good. Thank you, colby, it was a good conversation.

Colby: 58:44

Yeah, awesome. Thanks, Sally.

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